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Torque Converter Slip Measurement / Diagnosis

jon_s_brady

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Year, Model & Trim Level
'05 XLT
I've finally got my engine re-built and transmission in my vehicle and I can now drive to work. It's not where I want it though. I'm wondering if anyone has can provide a good explanation of torque converter slippage. I've encountered lots of articles on the web but they're seemingly mostly written by and for drag racers.

I'm hoping we can gather some information on what a stock Explorer's TC should be doing. For example, I use Torque Pro to gather data on my vehicle's performance. There's a PID available that captures torque converter slippage in the application. I've seen on the web references to slippage as a percentage but Torque Pro's measurements are in RPM. Does anybody know if the percentage is just the Torque Pro Slippage RPM as a percentage of the engfine RPM? What's normal and if we were to try and troubelshoot what other parameters should be looking at?

For example, I downloaded my data to an Excel spreadsheet and was analysing it. I read that the TC Lock solenoid should engage at and above 45 MPH. So filtering for that I found that my TC slippage values as measured in RPM rose as high as 77% even when driving at 55 MPH. This seems seriously wrong to me although I may be mistaken.

So this is a request for TC slip information for us "normal guys" driving plain old stock Explorers...
 



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That's a tall order. Don't know how much detail you want. I am also not familiar with the device you are measuring slipage with, so I'll try my best.

I always think of converter slippage in terms of RPM myself but we should start with some basics. The torque converter ties the engine output shaft to the transmission input shaft much like a clutch does. It provides the needed "slip" so the engine does not stall when the vehicle is sitting still. That is all it absolutely has to do.

Remember I am simplifing everything. If this is too basic sorry. If you want further installments with greater detail later, ask. The TC is a viscous coupling. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. With no slip at all. This viscous connection is transmission fluid. Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. One is turned by the enginge. The opposite one is connected to the trans input shaft. As the one blows air at the other, the air begins to make the opposite fan turn too. Just not at the same speed. This is called slippage. Now replace the air with trans fluid and put the two fans very near eachother. That's a basic torque converter.

Modern torque converters are all "lock-up" style. That is, the two fans can actually lock together under some conditions eliminating all slip. This is accomplished in a variety of ways. Oversimplify it, think of clutches engaging between the two fans so they are locked together. No slippage. This is much more efficient as there is little wasted energy. Better MPG, higher top speed and faster acceleration (back to the drag racers).

You must understand that any given TC, in any give application, under any specific load will have a different amount of slippage. If you add more power you get more slip. More load (more vehicle weight, better tire grip, lower numerical differential gear ratio) you get more slip. TC slip is one of the largest contributors to temperature rise in an automatic transmission. If you hold a vehicle still with the brake and apply max enginge power, the RPM that the enginge rises to is called the TC "stall speed". Add a more powerful engine and change nothing else and the "stall speed" for the TC will increase. Subtract enginge power and the "stall speed will decrese. All of those advertised stall speeds are just for comparison. Your results will vary.

At the beginning I said I would over simplify. Any TC will slip, even when locked if you apply enough power and enough resistance (load) to the trans input shaft. A clutch will also slip at some point. On unmodified street vehicles, this amount of slip is very small or now a days, non existant. Never fear. Look back in this overly long story and you will see I said the engineers found ways to gain additional advantages from this slip in the TC and only lockup the TC under specific conditions.

Back to drag racers. Add slip at launch and you get two advantages besides not stalling the engine. First, the engine RPM immediatly soars to a speed where the engine makes more power. Second, you get torque multiplication (remember I am over simplifying here) and thus more power to the rear tires. Drag racers often use torque converters with 3000 RPM stall speeds or more.

The TC can be locked manually (think springs and such that react to RPM) or by a computer. The manufacturers engineers decide how much slip and when based on the engine power production characteristics, the weight of the vehicle, gearing and the intended purpose of the vehicle to name a few. As you mentioned, in your particular application, the TC will not lock below 45 mph. Same truck but with a V8 (if they had the same trans) and this would be different. Typical stall speed of unmodified street vehicles may range from 1800-2400 rpm or so. My Explorer, making whatever power it curently makes has a stall speed of about 2600 rpm. Stock TC.

Acceterate moderatly up through all the gears maintaining a constant throttle application. Watch the tach and the rpms slowly rise and then abruptly fall with each transmission gear change. 1..2..3..4..5... Watch carefully and with older vehicles (less sofisticated TC's) and at the end you will see one more drop. That's the TC locking. More sofisticated TC's may engage as rpm rises in each gear only to disengage with an upshift, and then re-engage farther up the RPM scale. It all depends upon what the engineer designing the TC and then selecting the specfic TC for the specific application thought was best for the application. Some of my drag cars do not have computers controling the trans or TC yet they will lock once underway in first gear and never unlock again. Some of my higher power street vehicles that use automatic transmissions will do the same under wide open throttle but at less agressive throttle applications, may lock in each gear. Unlocking for the shift and then soon relock (they sense vacuum as a measure of load). Add a computer controller and you can do almost anything. Locking and unlocking, shifting up or down, whatever you think is best for the load detected.

The slippage percentage should be just as you said. The RPM difference between engine output shaft and transmisssion input shaft, expressed as a percentage. The only time it would ever be anywhere near 77% is under very large throttle application, regardless of transmission gear (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). When it said the TC should lock at and above 45 mph, it means it will not lock below 45 mph no matter what. Under a light load the "two fans" will still spin near the same speed even without it locked. Under heavy load the speeds will be very different. Upto the TC "stall speed" regardless of road speed. Unless the engineer decided that it should lock or in some cases partially lock under certain conditions.

See how complicated this is. There is no easy answer. Once you leave the 70's or in some cases the 1980's most vehicles use electronic controllers to get ever increasing efficiencies out of the TC. They have enourmous tables of conditions, loads, temps, throttle position and almost anything else the vehicle is capable of sensing to determine what the TC should be doing. Locking, unlocking, partially locking. This is definatly not simplified nor can it be.

That one time you said you where going 55 mph and the TC was slipping 75%, what was going on. Where you still in top gear. Going up hill. Bucking a serious head wind? Anything that required a very large throttle application. I'd have to calculate it out from gear ratios but thats probably about the equivalent of downshifting 2 gears. At 55 mph was your engine really turning at about 3800 RPM? It could be. An engineer may chose to unlock the TC rather than downshift if the need may be temporary and short lived. This helps prevent that dreaded gear hunting sensation many vehicles experience.

As I've said, a very complex topic. Is there a real issue with your Explorer or where you just noticing things you really never thought about before? If something is still unclear, just ask and I will try to clarify. Next time in a much shorter answer.
 






Good write-up! For the OP: You can easily check whether your TC clutch is being "locked-up" or not by observing your tachometer. Simply accelerate on an open, flat stretch of road using minimum throttle to reach about 55 mph. As the trans. shifts, the tach will drop slightly. The LAST drop is the lock-in of the TC clutch. At that point, VERY SLIGHT increased pressure on the gas pedal will NOT result in an rpm increase on the tach. It should increase veryu slowly as the vehicle gradually increases speed. If you apply too much pedal, the clutch will unlock, and the tach will immediately jump higher.

Be aware that during driving at speed while the clutch is locked, removing the foot from the pedal will always unlock the clutch. Then, upon resuming throttle the clutch must again lock. Thus, drivers who constantly "goose" the pedal on and off are unnecessarily locking/unlocking that clutch.

Several years ago, my '04 began flashing OD OFF light. It began only after the vehicle reached speed and failure of clutch lockup was detected. I confirmed it with the pedal test: The tach jumped higher when it should not have. I drove it 2000 miles all the way back home that way, replaced the solenoid module containing the TCC solenoid, and everything was good again! imp
 






Torque Pro Data

Here's a graph displaying data captured by Torque Pro as I came to work this morning. This data shows me starting at a stoplight and traveling over a distance of a mile or so in light traffic. Can anyone offer any insights?

Torque%20Data.JPG
 






honestly it looks about right to me. Although the small amounts of slippage seem a bit odd. I am very conscious of my foot and I know the right tricks to get my explorer to lock before 40 mph in O/D in traffic driving and it really helps with mpgs...
 






Here's a graph displaying data captured by Torque Pro as I came to work this morning. This data shows me starting at a stoplight and traveling over a distance of a mile or so in light traffic. Can anyone offer any insights?

Torque%20Data.JPG

First, when replying, all I saw was the url, so, can't recall all those squiggles! Using "preview", the graph is presented.

It would be nice if I knew what the x-axis units are: distance travelled, time elapsed, what? If feet, this chart covers travel over about 3/5 of a mile. Note that when TC slip is minimal, green line along axis, almost flat, the eng. rpm is pretty constant. This is consistent with the clutch being engaged, thereby "locking" eng. rpm to road speed, which cannot change quickly by very much with constant/near-constant throttle opening. Conversely, once well into motion, say beginning at 1123 to 1480, then 1939 to 2143, then 2398 to 2908, TC slip jumps up and down, as does eng. rpm, since the TC is either: "doing it's normal thing", or, the clutch is slipping, (or, the TC solenoid is rapidly turning on and off, this being unlikely). Again, need to know the meaning of those horizontal numbers to make a more certain educated guess here.

From 1 to 562, the very sharp TC slip excursions with relatively smaller rpm changes likely indicates a normal acceleration pattern from a stand-still, especially if the throttle were "worked" a fair amount. It appears the TC clutch engaged fully about three times, that when the red line is flat.

Bear in mind that Ford's system of controlling the TC clutch is through use of a variable position solenoid, which can explain those short-term little "blips" where slip of a very small amount occurs for short times. their aim with that is to eliminate long response times needed to go from clutch fully released to clutch fully engaged.

One more note is that vehicle speed, mph, does not change very drastically, or very quickly anywhere in this sequence except from the 1 to 460 number, during which acceleration is obviously happening. At 3112, the vehicle came to a stop, at which time eng rpm dropped to idle speed, about 700 rpm, and TC clutch slip jumped to about 55: this is misleading, as I don't know what the hell they're calling "slip": If the eng. is running at 700 rpm, and the trans. is IN GEAR, the vehicle standing still, the trans input shaft speed (same as TC output speed) is ZERO, therefore "slip" being equal to idle speed, 700 rpm.

Perhaps some else can offer better insight here. Your device does provide some very interesting information. imp

Edit: AHA! May have found it! Extreme right, veh. speed shown from 3112 to 3265 as ZERO, but if vehicle were creeping along at idle speed, no throttle, TC slip would be LESS than eng speed, if the R.H. numbers are in hundreds of rpm, when 3265 was reached, the very slow movement came to a stop, and the slip equaled eng idle speed, about 700 rpm! Very nice!
 






Imp, your analysis is much appreciated. To explain the graph (which I should have done at the start)...the left hand y-axis is dictated by the RPMs and so is in the '000s. The right hand, secondary y-axis is in % driven by the Load. Therefore load, speed and gear (dotted, brown and blue respectively) should refer to the right hand, secondary axis while RPM and TC Slip use the left hand, primary axis. As noted in the legend, TC Slip is measured in RPM.

The x-axis uses just sequential data points. I ended up with roughly 3300 data points in the period under investigation. I had set the device to take a reading every 0.1 seconds. I also checked my data start and end using the accompanying GPS lats and longs and putting them in Google Maps to verify using satellite imagery that I knew where I was.

Perhaps you can explain what the TC Slip figure means. Is it the RPM of the transmission shaft? Or is it the difference between the engine RPM and the transmission shaft RPM? I noticed when stopped at a light this afternoon that while the engine RPM was around 780 at idle, the TC Slip was reading between 0 and about 30-40 RPM. This leads me to think that the TC Slip figure is the transmission shaft RPM but if the car is stationary the transmission shaft should be 0.

Any insight is an education for me and I greatly appreciate your time and effort.
 






Imp, your analysis is much appreciated. To explain the graph (which I should have done at the start)...the left hand y-axis is dictated by the RPMs and so is in the '000s. The right hand, secondary y-axis is in % driven by the Load. Therefore load, speed and gear (dotted, brown and blue respectively) should refer to the right hand, secondary axis while RPM and TC Slip use the left hand, primary axis. As noted in the legend, TC Slip is measured in RPM.

Perhaps you can explain what the TC Slip figure means. Is it the RPM of the transmission shaft? Or is it the difference between the engine RPM and the transmission shaft RPM? I noticed when stopped at a light this afternoon that while the engine RPM was around 780 at idle, the TC Slip was reading between 0 and about 30-40 RPM. This leads me to think that the TC Slip figure is the transmission shaft RPM but if the car is stationary the transmission shaft should be 0.
Any insight is an education for me and I greatly appreciate your time and effort.

1 bold: You're most welcome!
2 bold: I can't imagine how, if we express "slip" in rpm, it could be anything else but the difference at any particular time between eng. speed and trans. input shaft speed. That difference being ZERO when the TC clutch is engaged, and EQUAL TO ENG. SPEED when standing stationary IN GEAR at idle (or even with throttle open). "Stall Speed" is the name given the amount of slip, holding the vehicle stationary with brakes applied, and throttle open to maximum position (WOT). The racing guys install "high stall" converters to allow higher rpms to be present (thus higher HP generated) during "launch".
3 bold: Assuming the trans. is not in NEUTRAL, any engaged gear forward or reverse, the trans input shaft (which is actually splined to the driven member ["fan"] in the converter) is mechanically connected to the driveshaft and thus the driving wheels, which are standing still. Thus, the trans. input shaft rpm MUST under those conditions be zero. Hope this helps! mo.
 






I think we are all on the same page. Feels a bit like an engineering class. Everyhting looks good to me too. You can even see the TC unlock with abrupt release of the throttle. It then sometimes "sees" that you aren't completely releasing the throttle and then locks or partially locks the TC. That data is great. All those little variations are easily explained by driving style and the normal ebb and flow of typical traffic.

Agree that it is strange that when the vehicle is stopped it does not indicate 100% slip with an RPM equal to idle speed. Maybe just a result of so much data overlaid on one graph. Maybe not intended to look at "stall" speed. Another thought, I wonder what sensor it uses to determine transmision shaft speed.

It very well may use knowns (transmision gear ratios) and the transmision output shaft speed (probably speedometer) to calculate transmision input shaft speed. Then it uses engine RPM as the TC input shaft speed. Calculates the deviation from expected and thats your slip number.
 






I think we are all on the same page. Feels a bit like an engineering class. Everyhting looks good to me too. You can even see the TC unlock with abrupt release of the throttle. It then sometimes "sees" that you aren't completely releasing the throttle and then locks or partially locks the TC. That data is great. All those little variations are easily explained by driving style and the normal ebb and flow of typical traffic.

Agree that it is strange that when the vehicle is stopped it does not indicate 100% slip with an RPM equal to idle speed. Maybe just a result of so much data overlaid on one graph. Maybe not intended to look at "stall" speed. Another thought, I wonder what sensor it uses to determine transmision shaft speed.

It very well may use knowns (transmision gear ratios) and the transmision output shaft speed (probably speedometer) to calculate transmision input shaft speed. Then it uses engine RPM as the TC input shaft speed. Calculates the deviation from expected and thats your slip number.

Obviously, you know "whereof you speak"! Just curious, what is your background? We're looking at some basic stuff here, like differing shaft speeds, and at the same time analyzing how it's being done! Neat! imp
 






Many jobs. Some pay the bills. Others never will. Picked up a few degrees along the way.
 






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