Vehicle surging with shudder/maybe torque converter clutch?

[stangcbr]

Thanks in advance for your help. I have a 2006 Mountaineer with 4.6 and 6R tranny with 62k miles. I have been having a surging problem when in lower RPM at a constant speed (~50). You will see a slight increase in RPM for a second, goes away for a few seconds and then repeats. It has gotten worse and car started shuddering every time the vehicles surges, until I added shudder fix, which removed the shuddering but not the surge. I borrowed a new SNAP ON SOLUS ULTRA reader to analyze the vehicle. Here is what I found during testing. I have not been trained on the device by the way.

*No codes
*RPM doesn't change and surge doesn't go away if I apply brake while holding gas at 50mph.
*TPS voltage was constant during surges
*During Surge, engine RPM increases and Converter Slip RPM increase.
*Only a couple spark misses reported (which I believe to be normal)
*Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) never locked on its own
*When I manually locked TCC (with Solus) Converter Slip RPM jumped from 0-10rpm to around 150-200rpm (opposite of what it should do)
*I could lock TCC and come to a complete stop without any stalling.
*Something called Torque_TCM(N-m) was always 0 (what should it be?)

Let me know if getting more info from scanner would be helpful. TCC doesn't appear to be working properly but the question is why and it is a symptom or cause of the surge (which appears to be related to slippage of the converter). Why the shudder if clutch isn't locking? I am hoping the whole converter or tranny doesn't need replacement. Thank you for your help!

 

[stangcbr]

Does anyone have any comments before I have to go and get screwed by Ford? For some reason I am the only commentless thread. This is my first question so I must be doing something wrong.

 

[willied]

I have what seems to be the same exact problem. It's only come up recently for me, and I have about 104,000 miles. The only thing I can suggest is that maybe the trans fluid level is low or needs replacing. I haven't tried this yet myself. Other than that I really have no clue. Sometimes I wish I could throw the transmission in this thing in the trash can. It surges at really low speeds (under 10 mph), and shifts are clunky at times, such as when I let off the throttle and it shifts up. I don't want to raped by the Ford dealer, either, so I'm kind of at a loss what to do. I'll probably get the trans fluid replaced some time at a trans shop.

 

[stangcbr]

Thanks for the response! I checked the fluid level when I added the shudder fix and it was fine. My truck doesn't have issues at slow speeds, just at low RPMs at higher speeds. I had gotten the latest transmission flash when I first bought it about a year and half ago. This flash fixed very hard shifts that it had and made driving the car much, much better. I would recommend that which costs about an hour or $100. I am however not convinced that they removed use of the Torque Converter Clutch to iron out some of the "clunkiness" the tranny showed. This was evident on my scanner when the Clutch didn't lock up on its on even once over a 30 miles drive. Thanks again for your help!

 

[willied]

Thanks for the response! I checked the fluid level when I added the shudder fix and it was fine. My truck doesn't have issues at slow speeds, just at low RPMs at higher speeds. I had gotten the latest transmission flash when I first bought it about a year and half ago. This flash fixed very hard shifts that it had and made driving the car much, much better. I would recommend that which costs about an hour or $100. I am however not convinced that they removed use of the Torque Converter Clutch to iron out some of the "clunkiness" the tranny showed. This was evident on my scanner when the Clutch didn't lock up on its on even once over a 30 miles drive. Thanks again for your help!

No problem. I've had the slow speed issues every since I got the Explorer at ~62,300 miles, but the shuddering just started happening in the last 1000 miles for me. It seems to happen around 45-50 MPH.

I did get the flash done, but that did nothing at all for mine. It seems to be a mixed bag with the flash update, it works for some, but not for others. I also replaced the TPS, and that wasn't the problem. Only things I have left are a trans fluid change and to replace the trans solenoid, but the solenoid replacement costs $1000 at the Ford dealer (whom I never want to deal with unless absolutely necessary, and that's just way too much money to risk it not being the solution).

Stuff like this sucks.

 

[stangcbr]

There is always, dare I say, the torque converter that needs replaced. My TPS voltage was constant when reading off the scanner, so fortunately I didn't have to replace that. I am not convinced a fluid change on a vehicle with 63k miles like mine that has never towed anything would be the culprit. I would like to do a pressure test (see the sticky in the trans forum) but I don't have a pressure gauge. I would like to see if the pressure if fluctuating. When you mention solenoid, there are a number of those. I was considering replacing the torque converter clutch solenoid which really didn't look too difficult. Has your surging turned into shuddering because the shudder fix works great for that, although it just fixes symptoms. I am going to try to get my initial question into the transmission section but I don't know now to change it. I will just repost it there. Good luck!

 

[iharting]

Had a problem like yours, and it had nothing to do with the trans. Only gave a 2135 code when the engine completely stalled and the yellow wrench light turned on while in the road. Whe it was scanned with the VCM-IDS system, trans was Ok and we noted some misfiring and TPS malfunctioning.

Solution: The guilty ones were the ETC wires (2 connectors at throttle body), toasted by the engine heat. Just unwrapped them, separating one from each other and the engine worked good again.

The problem showed symptoms like surging, shudder, bump shifting and stalling, no idle, worstened when a/c was on and engine temp raised keeping fan clutch activated.

The engine harness wich attaches to ETC (2 connectors: TPS and TAC) is the same which has the alternator connector (2 wires), and it suffers a lot from engine heat: Wires get bonded together and/or toasted, giving many kind of issues. I changed a good alternator because of this problem!

Good luck!

 

[stangcbr]

iharting,

I will definitely check the wires tomorrow. However, the scanner showed 2 misfires total in $06 data on the scanner, which is very little. In addition, my TPS voltage held flat when the care was surging.

I did find another thread that mimics my problem and was solved by the dreaded Torque Converter replacement.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358444

The guy that lent me the scanner thinks for sure that it is the TC. I still have no idea why the TCC never locked itself. He was saying if the TCC doesn't lock, it doesn't get oil to the back and can mess up the TC.

In another thread, a guy adjusted the band on an older style tranny that fixed a problem similar to ours. Not sure if the 6R60 Tranny has bands that can be adjusted?

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298764

 

[willied]

iharting,

I will definitely check the wires tomorrow. However, the scanner showed 2 misfires total in $06 data on the scanner, which is very little. In addition, my TPS voltage held flat when the care was surging.

I did find another thread that mimics my problem and was solved by the dreaded Torque Converter replacement.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358444

The guy that lent me the scanner thinks for sure that it is the TC. I still have no idea why the TCC never locked itself. He was saying if the TCC doesn't lock, it doesn't get oil to the back and can mess up the TC.

In another thread, a guy adjusted the band on an older style tranny that fixed a problem similar to ours. Not sure if the 6R60 Tranny has bands that can be adjusted?

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298764

After reading that first thread, I am 99% sure it's the TC in mine. I get the rumble strip sensation that he describes. That kind of sucks. If I could replace it myself it wouldn't be too bad, but I don't know how hard it is and what it entails.

 

[BigNutz]

My '06 had a problem like this and they ended up replacing the entire transmission under the extended warranty. I'm not sure if that was required or if it was just easier/cheaper for the warranty company to take the old transmission and rebuild it (They sent the rebuilt one to the shop).

 

[stangcbr]

iharting,
Wires looked perfect.

willied,
I have access to the Alldata.com information which details the replacement of the torque converter. I will see if I can get it saved off the website and maybe email it to you if you are interested. I am probably going to buy a TC off the DACCO site and replace that. In the process I will replace the tranny filter and maybe the TCC solenoid depending on its price.

BigNutz,
I am praying it is not the transmission. Still wondering if it could be a band inside the tranny like in the second post.

Thanks all!

 

[willied]

willied,
I have access to the Alldata.com information which details the replacement of the torque converter. I will see if I can get it saved off the website and maybe email it to you if you are interested. I am probably going to buy a TC off the DACCO site and replace that. In the process I will replace the tranny filter and maybe the TCC solenoid depending on its price.



Thanks all!

That would be awesome if you could. Thanks!

 

[willgatlin]

Had the exact same problem starting around 50k miles. The transmission / torque converter was replaced under my extended warranty after a prolonged argument with the dealership and filing an investigation complaint with Ford.
After my transmission was replaced it was fine for about 30 days then the same issue came back. In addition I got an annoying rattling noise from under the vehicle after having the transmission replaced. I think this was nothing more than a loose heat shield somewhere but I don't know.
It seemed like the only thing that helped was to constantly reset the computer, in other words disconnect the battery which clears the TCM.
Ford developed an ALS (adaptive learning strategy) for their transmissions years ago, it's a great idea and works wonderfully well in some of the vehicles. However, their design was crap when it came to the explorer.

If you check there are transmission complaints for the Explorer all over the internet, not so much due to mechanical issues but due to the shuttering, bucking, and other random things that happen.

I loved my explorer, but I have to be honest when I say that compared to the other Ford vehicles I will likely never buy an Explorer again due to it's vast mechanical failures and unreliability. I just wish all of you explorer owners the best, hopefully none of you experience what I did.

 

[willied]

iharting,
Wires looked perfect.

willied,
I have access to the Alldata.com information which details the replacement of the torque converter. I will see if I can get it saved off the website and maybe email it to you if you are interested. I am probably going to buy a TC off the DACCO site and replace that. In the process I will replace the tranny filter and maybe the TCC solenoid depending on its price.

BigNutz,
I am praying it is not the transmission. Still wondering if it could be a band inside the tranny like in the second post.

Thanks all!

Make any progress on it, stangcbr?

 

[hwystr]

I had the exact same issue 2yrs ago at 87k, replaced the TC under extended warranty, but now the surging is back at 107k.... Plugs/coils have also been recently replaced. What did you find stangcbr??

 

[stangcbr]

Funny that you ask! After almost a year and a half, and the problem getting much worse, I finally decided to replace the TQ today myself. Unfortunately, I didn't finish since the DIY shop I use was only open 6 hours today. It is more difficult to get to some of those bolts than expected. I will hopefully have an answer Tuesday evening when they are open again and I finish. I took the car to a number of different places over the past several months to get their thoughts. Mercury Dealership thought it was the TQ (~$1000). Two different tranny shops thought it was the TQ but of course wanted to do a complete tranny rebuild (~$2500) to make sure it wasn't a solenoid or something like that. I bought a Dacco reman TQ at Autozone for under $200 and 12 quarts of Mercon SP off ebay for $85. I am hoping this is it but in a post I read this morning, replacing the coils could fix it. You however have replaced both so maybe you can share your experience. As mentioned above, the computer I used never showed any misses, which I would think would occur if a coil.

 

[hwystr]

Misses vs Converter unlocking

They sound similar, hence all the overlap in suggestions. I have had all in mine over the last few years. Best way to describe the differences imo:

RPM surge - usually smooth, RPM surges/blips 50-100 rpm higher, then returns to original rpm seems to follow a cycle/rhythm every 5-20 seconds (rhythm gets faster over months). Usually only occurs 35-45mph in a locked gear (4/5/6).
Converter shudder/Rumble noise - sometimes accompanies the surge, sounds like going over rumble strips, gets worse over months. I had my TC replaced @87k, but I sense its coming back now at 107k.
Ignition Miss - sharper shudder, not as cyclical can be a one time event or several in quick succesion, usually occurs in 6th lock under load 40-60mph. Sometimes will be enough to unlock converter. Usually won't set a code, but if you can monitor live data you can see misfires. I had someone w/laptop s/w that could monitor live. Mine was resolved w/plugs [MENTION=71306]77[/MENTION]k. When I had a coil go [MENTION=234733]10[/MENTION]4k, it set a hard misfire code w/engine light.

Pls post how your repair goes. I'm on the verge of going into a dealer to analyze the trans again, i just know it won't be cheap...

 

[stangcbr]

So you are saying that once I replace my TQ, I just need to sell the car before reaching 30k more miles. What you describe is exactly what my car is doing, so hopefully the TQ replacement will fix it. What brand TQ did you use?

I had the TCM flashed with the latest software when I bought the car about 4 years ago due to very hard shifting and the bump upon stops, which it fixed both. I am not convinced that this new programming of when and how the TCC comes on didn't have something to due with premature TQ failure. One transmission website actually alluded to this and that until that is fixed, the TQ will continue to fail. I may check back and see if there is a new flash that can be put on. That job cost $100 the first time by the way. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks for the information.

 

[stangcbr]

So I completed the TQ swap with 10 quarts of new Mercon SP fluid and that fixed the problem. There aren't any surges in RPM or shutters anymore. HOWEVER, I do not think it is fixed permanently. I put the SnapOn Solus back on the car and checked the TCC, TQ slip RPM, and fluid temp. The TCC is still doing the same thing when I "lock" it manually with the Solus in diagnostic mode. The slip RPM with the TCC "unlocked" is between 0 and 10 under steady driving in 6th gear. When I hit the button to "lock" the TCC within diagnostic mode of the Solus, the slip RPM jumps to a steady 150 to 160. This is obviously not right. It also doesn't appear that the TCC ever tries to lock on its own. When you hit 6 gear, you should see an additional small drop in RPM a few seconds later signaling that the TCC has locked up. I never see that. Other than this, the vehicle runs great. I checked codes again and still nothing. Does anyone have an idea? Possibly TCC valve/solenoid? Thanks!

 

[hwystr]

Unfortunately, I don't have any great ideas either. It seems like your solus scanner is doing the opposite of what you want (I wonder if someone got the TCC flag backwards at solus?). You mentioned "shudder fix" in a prior post, is that an additive if so what brand worked well for you? Good luck and keep us posted on how it does. I am waiting for warmer weather before trying anything.