Need Advice on Supercharging

Anyone have any experience on supercharging the 5.0L? After all the intake and exhaust work I have done and and tuned by Henson Performance (Thanks
James) my little motor still strains to push 2 plus tons down the road. I guess I should clarify that once I'm up to speed it perfoms great. The engine is strong and the truck will go faster then I care to(again thanks to James at Henson Performance for removing the speed limiter). I'm just looking for more power off the line(Damn Civics) and supercharging seems to me to be the best option. I don't want to tear into the engine (thats for another day). So I thought I would ask you all about doing this. I have been researching and can pick up an Eaton M90(rebuilt) for a decent price but the question I have is since I have the internal EGR is this an option? I have seen the one (weiand?) on explorerexpress and it wont work with the internal EGR and there is no way I could afford the $3800.00 anyway. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[CDW6212R]

you woulnt see more power with higher octane gasoline. Octane numbers are the resistance to detonation...as in the higher the number the more resistance to actane. In fact if you can get away with it 87 octane will provide more power and performance than 92 oct (87 fuel is said to burn quicker)

As for ethanol you live in vancouver theres a e85 station in longview I belive you may want to look into what it would take to convert to e85

E85 is currently cheaper and has a octane of 105+. It also has intercooling abilities for if your going boosted. The fuel is cold to the touch and colder fuel being injected helps cool the air charge. You lose gas milage when running e85 but its worth it being a cheap race fuel. It is also more emissions friendly and cleaner burning. parts and internals stay cleaner like fuel pumps, rails, valves...

depending on the setup you can research on w2hat has to be done to convert as you already are working with tuning devices (also may need bigger injectors more e85 is neeeded per burn thatn gasoline. Change of the fuel filter very very frequently when first making the switch ( e85 cleans the fuel tank of any debris and varnish and sends it through

What is the best compression ratio for E85, I notice guys with race cars doing it?

 

[Jakee]

you woulnt see more power with higher octane gasoline. Octane numbers are the resistance to detonation...as in the higher the number the more resistance to actane. In fact if you can get away with it 87 octane will provide more power and performance than 92 oct (87 fuel is said to burn quicker)

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. You should be able run more timing with 92 resulting in more power, correct?

 

[CDW6212R]

The octane needs are tied directly with the compression ratio. The higher compression 4.0 SOHC can use the 89+ octane gas. For the lower compression 4.0 OHV engine it doesn't help near as much.

 

[zachow3]

My "93 Ranger 4.0 OHV pinged like a son of a gun on 87 octane and it was well maintained but all stock. Running 89 octane took care of the problem. Just because, I have ran only 92 octane in the Explorer since the day I bought it. And currently it is tuned for that grade of fuel. Both engines are only 9.0 to 1 compression. If I run 6 PSI boost, the effective compression ratio goes up around 12.8 to 1. A n/a engine with that kind of compression would need something better then pump gas.

I dont know anything about E85, but a round trip to Longview would be 80+ miles. A long and expensive way to go at 16 MPG.

 

[zachow3]

good luck, PD had no consistency, they gave me a smooth pulley . I swapped out all my pulleys anyways and played a game of charades and now I have a various assortment of pulleys all over the engine compartment. If you really want to use the ribbed pulley for that idler best bet is do what I did (I have all smooth pulleys), go to a local parts store armed with a list of pulleys off the dayco site (whatever brand your automotive store carries) and take them home and try each one and return the ones you dont need, you might have to add a washer behind the ribbed pulley since alignment is critical, with the smooth pulleys its of less imortance and Im sure thats why I had one in my kit.

On mine I re-used the stock large flat steel OEM Exploder pulley along with a GM auto spring tensioner and ditched PDs method of manually setting the accessory tension since my belts squeeled every other week or so.

I have to disagree on your statement about PD having no consistency. My kit came with a smooth pulley too. So that tells me that they consistently dont include all the parts that should be there.

Do you have a pic of the S/C installed so I can see how you routed that belt? And where did you find that tensioner? I may go that route to if I encounter the same problems you did. There only seems to be minor differences in your mounting bracket compared to mine. I dont know why there would be any difference but your setup looks far superior to PD's method.

Does this look familiar?

 

[reserved50]

I had something similar to that but they arent consistant, all my brackets came speckle painted and my alternator bracket was welded together with bits of metal plate and collars, but in the manual they showed a machined aluminum piece, so they still dont have my vote . The idiot on the help line didnt know what was up and gave me the "Zircon" (almost up and running) speech and will always tell you to email the problem, idiots.

http://www.daycoproducts.com/daycoweb.nsf/DaycoAutomotiveTensionersandPulleys.pdf
89204 and I used a fine thread metric or imperial (I forget) bolt that fitted snugly and drilled and tapped the bracket, when I tapped the bracket i did not run it all the way through so it would hold the bolt tightly then thread locked it. The "washer" below the base of the head of the bolt is from the pivot off a fulcrum arm off some GM since I was too lazy to cut the bolt down.

I tried like 800$ worth of tensioners and this is the only one that fit decent.


For the blower belt I scrapped the stock belt and bought a "green hi-miler" gates belts which only needs to be retensioned about once a year. The overdrive pulley I got from 92845454 whatever motorsports is machined wrong Im sure and cut one of the ribs clean off and the gates green belt still doesnt slip even with 5 ribs remaining.

the sc belt is routed around the cran pulley then around the SC pulley then BELOW the tensioner, mine had a set screw to adjust the blower belt tension but on yours, like it was mentioned before just snug the blower idler tensioner bracket and whack the top with a hammer.

 

[zachow3]

For the blower belt I scrapped the stock belt and bought a "green hi-miler" gates belts which only needs to be retensioned about once a year. The overdrive pulley I got from 92845454 whatever motorsports is machined wrong Im sure and cut one of the ribs clean off and the gates green belts still doesnt slip even with 5 ribs remaining.

the sc belt is routed around the cran pulley then around the SC pulley then BELOW the tensioner, mine had a set screw to adjust the blower belt tension but on yours, like it was mentioned before just snug the blower idler tensioner bracket and whack the top with a hammer.

I found the tensioner and and the price is good. Not much luck on the belt. Thinking, if it fits, I will try the one in the kit and see how it goes.

If you were thinking of the 928motorsports.com website, I am familiar with it.
I got some good info off it. It does surprise me that your pulley would be machined improperly. That doesnt fill me with confidence if that was the case. I was hoping that at some point, if I ever get there, of getting an overdrive pulley from them for a modest boost increase.

I cant wrench on the truck right now because of nagging back problems, so I'm pretty much stuck just doing research. It gets pretty boring and dry at times, but this is stuff I need to know.

 

[reserved50]

I looked over the belt carefully and the edges were not frayed, when i first had the pulley the thing that stuck out the most were the points on the ribs. You can see on the belt that the V notches have dug in a bit. This can be easily corrected if the edges are sharp by spinning the pulley while holding a file against it, should only take a few seconds. Thats the same place where I'll be buying the upgraded impeller from. Im not going to start rumors but they also took quite a while to figure out a simple problem someone was having with their blower on this site. I would still trust them over PowerDyne.

For the belt they (gates green) might not make an upgraded belt for the stock SC pulley, i went about 3 sizes down and they had one in the length I needed.

 

[zachow3]

Though not cheap that impeller upgrade sounds like some easy power.

Not sure if it will be necessary, but can the exhaust outlet be turned by loosening the housing bolts to align with the intake? I dont want to mess anything up on a new head unit and I prefer not to open it up if I dont have to.

And how does 500HP only get you down the track in the mid 13's. Especially with sub 5 sec 0-60 times.

 

[zachow3]

you woulnt see more power with higher octane gasoline. Octane numbers are the resistance to detonation...as in the higher the number the more resistance to actane. In fact if you can get away with it 87 octane will provide more power and performance than 92 oct (87 fuel is said to burn quicker)

As for ethanol you live in vancouver theres a e85 station in longview I belive you may want to look into what it would take to convert to e85

E85 is currently cheaper and has a octane of 105+. It also has intercooling abilities for if your going boosted. The fuel is cold to the touch and colder fuel being injected helps cool the air charge. You lose gas milage when running e85 but its worth it being a cheap race fuel. It is also more emissions friendly and cleaner burning. parts and internals stay cleaner like fuel pumps, rails, valves...

depending on the setup you can research on w2hat has to be done to convert as you already are working with tuning devices (also may need bigger injectors more e85 is neeeded per burn thatn gasoline. Change of the fuel filter very very frequently when first making the switch ( e85 cleans the fuel tank of any debris and varnish and sends it through

This is a good one for the SCT tuners on here. James? Robert?
Am I paying for 92 Octane because my truck is tuned for that when 87 Octane will yield the same results? I dont have an 87 Octane tune to compare it to so I'm obviously a little curious.

This post came up somewhat unexpectedly and I dont know what to think of it.

 

[CDW6212R]

For the stock 302's I'd say the 87 or 89 would be the best for the money. Each gas will produce a different power, but not as much is gained as if the engine had more compression. When you add boost to it though you will need to run the higher octane.

 

[reserved50]

Though not cheap that impeller upgrade sounds like some easy power.

Not sure if it will be necessary, but can the exhaust outlet be turned by loosening the housing bolts to align with the intake? I dont want to mess anything up on a new head unit and I prefer not to open it up if I dont have to.

And how does 500HP only get you down the track in the mid 13's. Especially with sub 5 sec 0-60 times.

Id say close to , just bench racing numbers from the mph and weight plus the AWD helps for traction off the line but its over 4500lbs. I had to "clock" the housing on the PD unit I had, just loosen the bolts and twist.

 

[zachow3]

For the stock 302's I'd say the 87 or 89 would be the best for the money. Each gas will produce a different power, but not as much is gained as if the engine had more compression. When you add boost to it though you will need to run the higher octane.

When I had my engine tuned by HensonPerformance (James) I asked about an 87 octane (economy) tune. I talked to James on the phone about this and his said the difference, I assume in mileage, would be negligible versus a 92 octane performance tune. I guess then is whether I could run 87 octane and still get the performance from my 92 octane tune. If I restore the truck to the PCM's stock parameters then I start hitting some roadblocks. Probably not an octane issue, but my rev limiter and shift points among other things are different. So I have no way of doing a fair comparison of different fuels. Since I'm going forced induction it really wont matter. I will have no choice but to run higher octane fuel anyway. I'm sure nobody wants to have to pay more for gas then necessary but since I have been using 92 octane since I bought my truck, it wont come as any surprise to me.
It was my choice to go for increased performance over economy, so I have to pay the going price or park the truck.

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm in the same boat, but the difference between grades is still only 20 cents. I'll tune for 89 octane for my stock SOHC, for mileage. The 347 I have coming with 9.7:1 compression will need the premium.

 

[zachow3]

I'm in the same boat, but the difference between grades is still only 20 cents. I'll tune for 89 octane for my stock SOHC, for mileage. The 347 I have coming with 9.7:1 compression will need the premium.

I'm in agreement with you that an extra $4.00 for a fill up is'nt that significant. I just got back from a local Chevron. $4.57.9 for 92 Octane. Thats the highest octane gas I know of in this area. Well, other then avgas, but I dont need that. I,m tuned for 92 so thats what I run. I tried an experiment with ethanol free gas but I didnt see any difference. I was a little surprised at that.

Like I posted earlier, my '93 4.0 OHV Ranger, totally stock, needed 89 octane to prevent pinging. Didnt matter how it was driven. Had it for over 10 years and never even changed the plugs. Just the usual, oil, air filter. The tranny went out but the engine never once gave me a problem.

The 347 you have coming probably puts out all kinds of power, and at 9.7:1 I would think the highest octane gas you can get will result in the best perfomance and more options for tuning.

Though, and I'm no expert, if you decided on some type of forced induction in the future, that 9.7:1 is a bit high for the 302's, but I suppose if built right this wouldnt be a big problem. Just my 2 cents worth.

What kind of power is a 347 putting out? I have'nt been able to find anything on this. Just curious.

 

[CDW6212R]

I am building for two potential vehicles. My Lincoln may never see this engine, but if I got that far it wouldn't be right to make it a 550hp car. I planned this engine so that if I get there, I can add a mild turbo to it for my car, 6-8psi possibly. If I get to build a 2nd engine, that will be a lower compression 347 for 14psi or more. I figured I'd start with a strong first engine with the most compression for the mild boost. With a stock block and custom cam, it may make nearly 350 flywheel hp. We have horrendous headers, so 275-300rwhp may be the goal for a NA 347.

 

[zachow3]

I am building for two potential vehicles. My Lincoln may never see this engine, but if I got that far it wouldn't be right to make it a 550hp car. I planned this engine so that if I get there, I can add a mild turbo to it for my car, 6-8psi possibly. If I get to build a 2nd engine, that will be a lower compression 347 for 14psi or more. I figured I'd start with a strong first engine with the most compression for the mild boost. With a stock block and custom cam, it may make nearly 350 flywheel hp. We have horrendous headers, so 275-300rwhp may be the goal for a NA 347.

I hope when you say horrendous headers you are talking about the stock exhaust manifolds. That was one of the first things to go. I have the 2" I.D. Torquemonsters. This is the smaller set. There is a 2 1/8" I.D. but these are to be used on a fairly modified engine. Without the supercharger installed, my engine is lightly modified. I have a completely new exhuast system from the headers back. New primary cats, high flow spin cat secondaries, dual 2 1/2" into a flowmaster 40 with 3" single out reduced to 2 1/2" dumping at the rear bumper. I thought this set up would give me sufficient backpressure so I would'nt lose low end torque. But apparently I was wrong. I doesnt feel like I have the off the line low end power I did when It was stock. Even with a MAC CAI and 1" phenolic intake spacer, It doesnt seem to pull off the line as well. Once I get into the mid range RPM, (about 2000) then it pulls strong all the way to my rev limiter.
I,m kind of stuck. The supercharger wont help much off the line since there will be no boost at low rpm. I dont want to regear. My 3.73's are perfect for a daily driver. I can launch at aroud 2200 rpm with the stock TC, but I have only tried that once just to see. My hope is the supercharger spins up the motor faster from idle. It's getting this heavy pig rolling that seems to be the biggest hurdle.

 

[CDW6212R]

A torque converter will help the most with that. Better overall airflow will help also, meaning cam/heads/compression/displacement. The engines are very light internally as far as the assembly parts go(stock). Of course aftermarket internal parts will be a little lighter(pistons) and stronger.

Again the best thing to do is plan and build a very good combination. It is very bad to drastically upgrade the flow potential of one or a few parts. They all need to be made for the same rpm range. Try hard to see examples by others, the head type for the given rpm range, the TC stall speed, compression, exhaust, camshaft etc. The stock parts are well made for a limit of 5000rpm. Moving up 500rpm can make good use of a lot of different parts, but not the heads or intake. Adding displacement would require quite a few parts, otherwise the power band drops a lot.

A 332 would cut the rpm range by 10% for example. A 332 with stock heads/cam/intake would be equally out of breath at 4500 instead of 5000rpm. I believe that you are getting the idea behind most parts. Keep working through the possibilities with your budget. Regards,

 

[Premierexplorer]

you can get e85 in Portland and you wont have to drive to longview, but it is the same price as 87.

 

[zachow3]

Until something lets go, i.e. blows up, I wont be tearing into the engine or tranny. I want to see what I can achieve with all the bolt on's. There are many things I would like to do without diving into the internals, but lets see what results I can net with my modest setup.

When I have it up and running, I will post dyno numbers so everyone interested can see how this setup runs. I doubt that I will have any track times. I dont want to drag race it. No close track and no desire to push the truck that hard. I hope to be able to post the info by the end of August. I'm taking time off from work then to just work on the install.

I'm about 90% done with having all the parts I think I will possibly need. Still havent decided on exactly what spark plugs I want to run, though I have a good idea. And the thermostat is still up in the air, not sure if I should go a little cooler with that. Various fittings and such I sitll need to get but that can all be aquired locally.

I fiigure a good week or more to do everything and that is factoring in the unexpected surprises which I anticipate will pop up.

I will keep you posted.