DIY Rebuilt 4R70W has no endplay

[Justin_]

Hey guys. This is coming off a thread working on a 5.0 drivetrain + swap found here here, but thought it might be better to post in the trans section.

TLDR, I finished rebuilding the inside of a 4R70W following the transmission bench videos on YouTube but have yet to finish everything in the pan.

At the start of part 2-6 they talk about how you should be able to turn it by hand and have some endplay on the input shaft. What I have is a bit difficult to turn by hand and does not seem to have any endplay. If I test fit the torque converter and try to turn it with that it spins just fine and does not seem to rub anywhere. Along the way I replaced all the bearings and made sure to put them in the right way around, also did a few test fits and everything seemed fine.

Mainly wondering how much I should worry about this. It is starting to get cold where I am at and i'm wondering if that might be the cause. Should I pull the core parts back out and start over, or do you think im ok?

(Photo of one of the test fits)

 

[JK080]

If you presoaked the clutches in ATF it can make it harder to turn.

The bearing between the forward drum and reverse drum looks very similar to the one in the bottom of the case. The one in the bottom of the case will fit the reverse drum but will bind on the pump stator when you install the pump and this will lock it down. Looking at your picture the bearing on the table looks like the correct one for the bottom of the case. Also the bearing on the small sun gear that fits into the planet has changed in the later models so make sure the new one matches the old one.

Did you swap/replace any of the hard parts like the planet or ring gears? there are changes from early and late model transmissions.

Pull the pump back out and put a small amount of grease on one spot on the plastic washer on the pump, then reinstall the pump and turn the shaft if you can, then pull the pump back out and look at the grease, if you can tell that it has been smeared then this can tell you that the washer is making contact with the reverse drum and the end clearance may be too tight.

Also if you replaced any bushings make sure they are pressed in far enough, some like the small one in the planet will contact the inner bearing race of the bearing on the direct drum if its not pressed in far enough.

 

[CDW6212R]

That's great advice. There are slight differences between models, plus changing any main parts can alter the end play, which is adjustable slightly with that front plastic washer. Those come in varying thicknesses, but their purpose is fine tuning the end play when had parts are changed.

James, do I recall right that the end play should be in the .050 or so range, which is more by feel than measuring?

 

[imp]

That's great advice. There are slight differences between models, plus changing any main parts can alter the end play, which is adjustable slightly with that front plastic washer. Those come in varying thicknesses, but their purpose is fine tuning the end play when had parts are changed.

James, do I recall right that the end play should be in the .050 or so range, which is more by feel than measuring?

Here's what I remember, and it ain't much. My 4r55e quit shifting, but no slipping. Took it apart. Several thrust bearings were broken, one a needle bearing, allowing parts to lose location on their shafts. This mis-aligned the holes through which fluid must pass to engage clutches. So, end-play obviously is very important. And, since it's "stacked up", it must be correct throughout, IMO.

 

[JK080]

That's great advice. There are slight differences between models, plus changing any main parts can alter the end play, which is adjustable slightly with that front plastic washer. Those come in varying thicknesses, but their purpose is fine tuning the end play when had parts are changed.

James, do I recall right that the end play should be in the .050 or so range, which is more by feel than measuring?

My info says end clearance should be .004 to .044.

I rarely have to adjust this and we use a "H Gauge" to check for end clearance, very handy for most transmissions.

 

[Uni91]

Hi i allso did a rebuild on a 4r70w for a 02 f150 i can turn the main input shaft by hand and has some end play to the left a right, but not to the front and back. i took it appart 6 time and put it back together same thing.
a read that i could put in a other plastic sthurt washer and it micht help. anny thoughts on this,i would realy appreciate the help.

 

[Justin_]

Hi i allso did a rebuild on a 4r70w for a 02 f150 i can turn the main input shaft by hand and has some end play to the left a right, but not to the front and back. i took it appart 6 time and put it back together same thing.
a read that i could put in a other plastic sthurt washer and it micht help. anny thoughts on this,i would realy appreciate the help.

Hey, I haven't actually got it figured out yet. Kinda on hold waiting for better weather now.

I worked on a 5r55e here recently and it went together fine.

On the 5r55e I found that one of the sets of steels were thicker than the original, had to use the old ones (those were still fine). I wonder if it's something like that.

What hard parts did you replace? Maybe if we both replaced the same hard part we can narrow it down.

Let me know if you find anything.

 

[Uni91]

Hey, I haven't actually got it figured out yet. Kinda on hold waiting for better weather now.

I worked on a 5r55e here recently and it went together fine.

On the 5r55e I found that one of the sets of steels were thicker than the original, had to use the old ones (those were still fine). I wonder if it's something like that.

What hard parts did you replace? Maybe if we both replaced the same hard part we can narrow it down.

Let me know if you find anything.

HI so that's a difficult question, some mechanic worked on the box but they did a terrible job. When I lowered the transmission I found a cracked flex-plate 2 steel plates in de forward drum were stacked on another and in the reverse drum the Reverse Clutch Diaphram was cracked that. I alsow put in new thrust washer.
So when I replaced all the washer I could turn the input shaft by hand but when I placed the old washer between the output and direct druk back I could turn it by hand again and I had the left to right play in the input shaft but no back to front.
Thank for the advice on the steel plates, the annoying thing is that I don't have the old ones and the only way for me to find parts is to order them. I can't find them locally.

 

[CDW6212R]

The clutches(frictions and steels) shouldn't have any effect on the total end play. The clutches have their own play to check, which ideally is .010" per pair of clutches. Usually the total end play is unchanged with a rebuild, but that's when all of the original main hard parts are reused. When you change a drum or other hard parts, that's when resetting the end play can be an issue. The end play is adjusted with the selective plastic washers, the colored one at the very front. Their are selective steel snap rings for each of the drums, you change those as needed to get the proper clutch clearances. There's about four thickness snap rings to choose from, for each drum.

 

[Justin_]

That explains a lot and definitely makes sense.

I did replace hard parts when rebuilding my transmission. I guess I should be looking for new plastic washers then? Can I just buy a set of them?

 

[Uni91]

The clutches(frictions and steels) shouldn't have any effect on the total end play. The clutches have their own play to check, which ideally is .010" per pair of clutches. Usually the total end play is unchanged with a rebuild, but that's when all of the original main hard parts are reused. When you change a drum or other hard parts, that's when resetting the end play can be an issue. The end play is adjusted with the selective plastic washers, the colored one at the very front. Their are selective steel snap rings for each of the drums, you change those as needed to get the proper clutch clearances. There's about four thickness snap rings to choose from, for each drum.

i measured the clearence of the drums and they all seam to be in the spec. range. even the forward drum seems to be sitting al the way down.
Thanks for confirming what i thougt.
thank you man

 

[Uni91]

That explains a lot and definitely makes sense.

I did replace hard parts when rebuilding my transmission. I guess I should be looking for new plastic washers then? Can I just buy a set of them?

you can find a full set on ebay for about $15

 

[CDW6212R]

Ditto, those are not expensive. When I built my first AOD, I bought all of the different drum snap rings, and those selective plastic washers. I didn't need to change that washer/spacer for the AOD's and 4R's that I rebuilt(I've done two of each). The last AOD I did change a few big items inside, but it still felt right with the original plastic washer. I'm going to take that one back apart and use the brand new AODE sungear shell I put in it. I'll use that to make one 4R70 a close ratio trans, for my Lincoln. I'll put the AOD back together eventually with the extra wide ratio parts from the 4R's, and sell it if I can. That was a great AOD for my first LSC I had. But the 4R is a much better transmission if you have it.

 

[Justin_]

Cool. Well sounds like we nailed down the problem here. I did replace some hard parts in there so that's probably where that difference came from. Glad I'm not just crazy.

I'll order the washer set and be ready for spring. I did check the drum clearance on the 4r70w now that I think back. I missed that step on the 5r I was working on and forgot about ring differences. That is probably why my new steels didn't fit. They were way bigger though in the scheme of things, think they might have been too big anyway.

I was hoping I would figure this out before winter, thanks for the help!

 

[Uni91]

Cool. Well sounds like we nailed down the problem here. I did replace some hard parts in there so that's probably where that difference came from. Glad I'm not just crazy.

I'll order the washer set and be ready for spring. I did check the drum clearance on the 4r70w now that I think back. I missed that step on the 5r I was working on and forgot about ring differences. That is probably why my new steels didn't fit. They were way bigger though in the scheme of things, think they might have been too big anyway.

I was hoping I would figure this out before winter, thanks for the help!

Update, the green plastic washer was what I needed and the play of the input shaft is within spec. One last question and I just want to be sure. When you turn the input shaft does is mage a squeaky sound and do you als hear the forward drum clicking? ( not the yes the input shaft turns free by hand)

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes the assembly turned by hand usually has a squeak sound.

 

[Uni91]

Yes the assembly turned by hand usually has a squeak sound.

oke i hope you can also help me with this part. i installed the transmission and i put in the 4x4 transfer case but for some stupid reason the outpu shaft does not turn bij hand when the trains mission is in nutral. the 4x4 transfer ase did turn freely bij hand.when installind i splined up the output shaft of the transmission,it went in and i tightend down all the bolts

 

[CDW6212R]

I don't think you will be able to turn it by hand with it installed. Just be easy when engaging the splines when you seat the trans, as well as the TC. Once they slip together without resisting, then the bolts can be snugged fully, and tightened.

 

[Uni91]

I don't think you will be able to turn it by hand with it installed. Just be easy when engaging the splines when you seat the trans, as well as the TC. Once they slip together without resisting, then the bolts can be snugged fully, and tightened.

Oke. I started the engine today put it in drive and the output shaft did not spin at all. If I put it in neutral it does not turn by hand

 

[CDW6212R]

Have you filled the trans fully with fluid, how much did you put in to start with, and in total? It should need about 6-7 quarts to initially fill the pan etc, and then another six maybe to get it completely filled. Don't put it in gear until you have put most of the ATF in, it should begin to show on the dipstick before first putting it in gear. Then you move it through all gears, stopping in each briefly.

You keep checking the fluid until it stops dropping, before the first test drive. Then you check the fluid again, and again on level ground, to be sure it is full. Hopefully you just don't have enough ATF in it.