12V power source question re:electronic rustproofing

[762mm]

A copy & paste from their site:

"CounterAct electronic rust and corrosion protection, is a patented process

The truly unique quality of the CounterAct electronic rust control method is demonstrated by the nature of the original CounterAct patents which not only covers our electrostatic corrosion control systems but the actual electronic process governing these devices as well. A warmed over traditional electronic rust protection device would not be granted a patent of this type and scope. Lest anyone think that we are disparaging the tried and true technologies that makes up traditional electronic rustproofing ,this is not the case. Traditional electronic rust protection, as stated above, has a well proven track record of half a century of rust control in protecting buried and submerged metal objects. Also, as with any technology that has existed unchanged in its most basic applications for so long, traditional electronic rust protection has essentially been perfected after half a century of "debugging." Clearly traditional electronic rust prtection has its role. That role however is rust and corrosion control in buried and submerged environments.

From time to time various attempts have been made to apply traditional electronic rust protection or rust control methods to applications above ground or above the waterline. Some of these attempts have been valid scientific studies aimed at determining whether traditional electronic rust protection methods could be adapted or modified to free air environments. Other attempts at utilizing traditional electronic rustproofing in free air environments have been the result of scientific ignorance on the part of those attempting to employ it. Regardless of whether legitimate scientific inquiry or misguided misapplication was behind these attempts, to date all attempts to employ traditional electronic rust protection in above ground or non-submerged environments have proven futile."

CounterAct URL: http://www.counteractcpr.com/

U.S. Patent Info URL: http://www.google.com/patents?id=JCU7AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4,767,512#PPA1,M1

 

[budwich]

Interesting "discussion".... lots of "info". On the "claim" of the 300-600v... if true, doesn't speak of "DC" at all. A "current limited spike" of voltage can easily be placed on two leads of conductors....simple discharge.... kind of like "pulsing gas to make light"... . Not that scientific but perhaps the "ongoing" effect might be of interest or so CounterAct leads us to believe.

 

[bluesman2333]

Not that scientific but perhaps the "ongoing" effect might be of interest or so CounterAct leads us to believe.

My bulls*it detector goes off every time I read about their claims. I agree that Mythbusters should investigate.

 

[762mm]

I don't know if it makes any diffrence at all (probably not), but after driving the truck today, I have noticed that the device makes a lot less noise... still audible, but it doesn't seem to be "working as hard"... The beep is barely audible now whereas yesterday, right after the install, I could hear it from several meters away (even with the hood closed).

Maybe it is due to the fact that the car got "charged up" with whatever it's supposed to be protected by, and requires less charge now? Or maybe the device is quitting already, lol!


On another note: If you look into the patent info I've looked up and posted, and then the court ruling posted (by High Order1) earlier, there could be somewhat of a connection: the patent was first registered in PA in 1988 - the company that got sued for 200,000$ (Rust Evader, Rust Buster) in 1995 was also established in PA according to the ruling, but it does not appear to be the same entity. Could it be that they tried to create a rip off version of the original patent registered in the same State by someone else (currently CounterAct) and capitalize on their claims without using the same technology (which they couldn't use, for obvious reasons)? Interesting... might require further investigation, if the legal info is available out there.

 

[budwich]

the "chirp" might be the "audible" side of the device in that (if the patent stuff is accurate), the thing "runs" in the 1khz domain which depending on the components will be audible. Lots of things are like that in the power supply domain.

good luck... probably can't be any worse than the "spray your vehicle with this secret coating and your vehicle will be protected from rust... except for THIS type, that type,... oh yeah, surface rust, paint chips that aren't fixed, etc"...

 

[762mm]

the "chirp" might be the "audible" side of the device in that (if the patent stuff is accurate), the thing "runs" in the 1khz domain which depending on the components will be audible. Lots of things are like that in the power supply domain.

good luck... probably can't be any worse than the "spray your vehicle with this secret coating and your vehicle will be protected from rust... except for THIS type, that type,... oh yeah, surface rust, paint chips that aren't fixed, etc"...

Yup, I guess you might be right... Worst case scenario, this is a scam and there will be collective lawsuits made against the company, and hopefully I'll get something back then. Best case scenario they actually have some Einstein on their team that actually made it work in 1988, and had it patented. Who knows these things... Only time will tell.

P.S. When time allows, I will make an experiment... I will compare brake rotor rust accumulation on my parents' truck (without Counteract) and my truck (with), on the area which is usually clean of rust due to pad friction... They both have the same rotor type and brand, and the same pads installed. I'll just spray some salty water onto the rust free areas of the rotors under the same conditions, and see if there's a diffrence in oxydation. Seeing is believing....

 

[manaen]

On fiberglass boats, cathodic protection isn't needed or used. The zinc plate on a ships hull is a sacrificial anode. It is bonded directly to the hull and is there so as electrolysis takes place, the softer metal will be eaten away and not the steel hull. There is no charge on it other than what is on the hull.

Actually on fiberglass boats Cathodic protection is used, Otherwise the Prop and rudder would corrode off in a year. I totally agree with everthing else you said.

 

[bluesman2333]

Actually on fiberglass boats Cathodic protection is used, Otherwise the Prop and rudder would corrode off in a year. I totally agree with everthing else you said.

No, a zinc is attached to the prop shaft and also to the rudder if it is bronze. These are sacrificial anodes, no cathodic protection is used. Don't confuse zincs with an electronic cathodic protection system.

 

[High_Order1]

hmmm

Well, it sounds like you are pretty sold on this thing. I was hopeful at the beginning, but the more you provided from them, the more I think you got a box full of nothing but a blinky light and a beeper attached to your ride.

No way we can get you to take a screwdriver to it and shoot a few snaps, huh? lol

Cut and paste warrioring:

According to CounterAct and what they claim, the two couplers emit something like 300V or 600V (I don't remember which) at their tips, but with low amperage....

The Whelen strobe modules I install put 600v through those tubes. You don't want to touch them. Yes, amperage plays a part, but look at the difference in sizes. It is exactly like people at the swap meets selling thousand watt car amps that are the size of a small Bible. Peak, maybe. Continuous, no freaking way.

the device changes 12V into a much higher voltage, like a power inverter or something.

Sure, an inverter plays the same function on the real units.

The paint on the body/insulation on the coupler changes that into some sort of a protection for the car that travels through the metal all over the structure.

.....and then, the train runs off the rails. Its' like saying all this math, then magic occurs, and you have your answer. First, paint is an insulator. You hafta sand it off or you get a lousy ground. So, how is it propagating the electron flow? It could use HF, and make it travel over the skin, but then, when you reach to grab your door, zzzt.

There has to be a straightforward explanation. You can explain nuclear weapons, supercomputers, etc. May not understand it, but it can be explained. How come they can't describe in technical detail how this works?

As far as the electrochemical reaction is concerned, I remember reading somewhere (I think one of the tech forums) that the lead in the battery might be involved to complete that chemical reaction.

Boy, I would hope not. The stuff in a lead/acid cell needs to stay on the inside of the battery. Does this also mean it couldn't be powered by a gel cell or house current on an adapter? hmmmm

......Consumer Reports magazine and other media would be all over this if this exact same technology has been already declared a scam in 1995

Not necessarily. I read a lot. A lot. First I heard of this doodad. You should email them.

Plus they claim to have sold this to salt mining companies for their big Tonka trucks and for city plow trucks for decades, ...

One of the biggest ways to pimp a product is to box one up and mail it to the US Navy SEALS, the FBI, and everwho else is big in that field. If it doesn't come back, you can *assume* and say "USED BY THE SEALS AND THE FBI!!!!" Lots of groups buy lots of crap every year to test and evaluate. A lot of it gets binned in the skip. But it doesn't protect them from name abuse.

quote Man, I wish they could test this stuff out on "MythBusters" or something, lol.... love that show.

I can't stand that show the same way I can't stand CSI:whereever. It's entertaining, but scienced and accurate, they ain't. But Mythrippers has a website, go tell them. They might bite.

The truly unique quality of the CounterAct electronic rust control method

It occurs in nature, therefore it ain't unique.

A warmed over traditional electronic rust protection device would not be granted a patent of this type and scope.

Yes it would. You can patent a ham sandwich as long as you can prove a significant difference from the prior art.

Other attempts at utilizing traditional electronic rustproofing in free air environments have been the result of scientific ignorance on the part of those attempting to employ it. Regardless of whether legitimate scientific inquiry or misguided misapplication was behind these attempts, to date all attempts to employ traditional electronic rust protection in above ground or non-submerged environments have proven futile."

Right there, they tell on themselves.

I will compare brake rotor rust accumulation on my parents' truck (without Counteract) and my truck (with), on the area which is usually clean of rust due to pad friction

One test to make: get an ohmmeter. Touch one probe to the rotor, and one probe to a good chassis ground. Report back your findings.

Meanwhile, I'll go read the patent.....

-Shawn

 

[High_Order1]

All Right...

...now we're getting somewhere. I went to their website. That's clue 1. A real company not renting space or working out of a garage would have a professionally designed and executed website. Theirs is, ah, substandard.

I found the technical explanation I wanted, I still haven't gotten to the patent yet.

They say:

CounterAct's electrostatic corrosion control devices consist of three primary components:


1. A small pulsed DC power supply and control unit (in the case of a typical passenger vehicle system about the size of a pack of cigarettes) is the heart of our corrosion proofing systems. The power supply is all solid state circuitry embedded in electronics grade (UL 94V-0 flame retardant) epoxy encapsulant for long life and durability in any climate. On automobile and light trucks it is typically installed under the hood or in the trunk (wherever the battery is located ) where it runs off the 12V from the vehicle battery drawing less current than a typical digital clock.

(2 is the nifty harness)

3. One or more of CounterAct's unique "programmed capacitive couplers". These capacitive couplers, which are attached to the protected metal surface with aircraft grade adhesive, are charged by the power supply/control module and function as if they were the positive half of a capacitor. They are wired to the power supply in parallel (each on individual circuits) and meticulously engineered so that each serves to produce a measured and specific limited range of capacitance and thus deliver a measured and specific limited range electrostatic charge via capacitive coupling. These capacitive couplers are vital to the effectiveness of the system and CounterAct exercises the utmost care in their manufacture.

First is the box. They pot it so you can't open it and see the wizards' magic. So, that's out.

But, look at the footprint, the size of the item. Does that look like something capable of producing 600v pulsed continuously for years? Think about high performance solid-state ignition systems as a reference.

Then they say it draws less current than a digital clock. So, 600 volts DC from a milliamp or so in.

I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen electrically conductive aircraft glue.

Now the kicker. This thing works by:

Together these three components serve to induce a negative electrostatic surface charge on the metal surface being protected (your vehicle's body for instance) thus capacitive coupling treats the metal body as if it were the negative half of a capacitor. This negative surface charge serves to interfere with the normal electrochemical corrosion processes that create corrosion on metals.

Remember me talking about putting a surface charge on the vehicle? What happens when its' grounded? How much of a charge can you make from a thousandth of an amp input?

Now, we all know a functioning circuit has to make a loop, start to finish. They say that there is an induced negative field. You can do that with a van de graff generator. But how do they do it?

The finale:

In the CounterAct corrosion control system, the electrostatic field that is created on the metal structure or vehicle's body slows down the rate of charge transport in the extremely minute moisture layer on the vehicles body, thus reducing the rate at which the normal oxidation reaction can take place. In other words the CounterAct corrosion control system acts like a catalyst altering the rate of the reaction without actually affecting any change in the thermodynamics of the reaction.

Ignore all the big sciency words for a minute.

Remember how they said traditional methods don't work? The traditional method relies on moisture to make the circuit. They just said they rely on moisture. They said traditional moisture methods can't work.

And I agree. (takes bow)

-Shawn

 

[bluesman2333]

Any one with any science background has all sort of trouble with this system. Like I said, my BS detector goes off on this too. You are right, they do invoke magic for part of the operation.

 

[budwich]

Your "arguments" sound almost as good as their "claims".... real "scientific". Not sure why its so hard to believe that you can "charge" an automobile, static electricity is a common problem for moving objects. Whether it helps with rust "protection" is probably a good "discussion". As for "cycling" 600volts.... it doesn't take a lot of electronics to do this, the neons that you mention are a good example.... their power supplies are small.

 

[manaen]

No, a zinc is attached to the prop shaft and also to the rudder if it is bronze. These are sacrificial anodes, no cathodic protection is used. Don't confuse zincs with an electronic cathodic protection system.

Ahhh.. Very good, thanks for the clarification, I assumed that those systems were active as well, not just a passive anode.

Knowledge is always the best tool

Oh and in this case my knowledge says scam :thumbdwn:

 

[762mm]

One test to make: get an ohmmeter. Touch one probe to the rotor, and one probe to a good chassis ground. Report back your findings.

Meanwhile, I'll go read the patent.....

-Shawn

Ok, I've put the ohmmeter to it....
Here are the results:
=================

Stock firewall ground - TO - Rotor = 22.28 Ohm

Device Ground (center of left fender) - TO - Stock firewall ground = 0.5 Ohm

Device Ground (center of left fender) - TO - Negative battery terminal = 1.0 Ohm


If you need me to do other readings for you, let me know... I have no idea what those numbers mean when it comes to rust protection, and did the other readings in case you would need to make a comparison.

 

[budwich]

The readings are basically of no use since the system isn't "working" in the "read domain"... you need "instantaneous values" and are more interested in "impedances" which deal more with capacitance and inductance. The "inaccuracy" of your meter probably has more impact on the readings that you took than the actual reading... when the resistances are that low.

 

[High_Order1]

oh, ok....

Your "arguments" sound almost as good as their "claims".... real "scientific".

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!


I can make it as scientific as it needs to be. I'm not testifying in Federal court. I am offering an opinion on a message board on teh Intarweb.


There's always one in a group.

....anyway.

7.62 - Hey! Thanks for the measurements. I was curious as to how much of a path there was.

bluesman - I am in total agreement with you. It just bugs me when people hide behind science to fleece people. Especially something I think that someone, somewhere will eventually find an answer for. There is a great deal of research into advanced shielding technology based on RF/magnetic/electrical energy. I believe that resistance to wear (spelled paint and bearings) and damage is close at hand as an offshoot of the research.

Anyway, I stand behind everything I say. 7.62, seriously, consider emailing mythbusters and consumer reports, and hell, maybe even the FTC. They may have current investigations reference that company, and just need more evidence from people like you.

Fascinating topic!

-Shawn

 

[762mm]

The readings are basically of no use since the system isn't "working" in the "read domain"... you need "instantaneous values" and are more interested in "impedances" which deal more with capacitance and inductance. The "inaccuracy" of your meter probably has more impact on the readings that you took than the actual reading... when the resistances are that low.

Well, I don't know of how much use they can be, but the reading's were taken with my dad's 300$ Fluke digital multimeter... he's an electrician. As far as the utility of the measurements taken is concerned, I have absolutely no idea of their purpose and need enlightement. I took them at High Order1's request... He seems like a knowledgeable guy. Or maybe he works for a competitor, haha

As far as e-mailing the mythbusters is concerned, I went on their site yesterday... They have a forum similar to this one where you can post myths and stuff (it's amazing how many idiots post stupidities there... I saw one asking if making your trunk heavy in the winter will improve rear-wheel traction... or if flying through your windshield is dangerous... or some other guy was asking if it's feasible to make a home-made gun, lol).

Anyway, the forum seemed to be down for new topic posting (error when trying to create a new one). The search engine seemed to be down as well... I do not know if there's someone from the show actually reading all the crap being posted, maybe it's just a passtime for the fans. It's kind of surprising that they test the myth of whether a chinese astronomer went into orbit by attaching fireworks to his chair (duh!) but didn't yet test electronic rustproofing devices for cars. What a shame... (or... conspiracy?)

Speaking of Mythbusters, here's an interesting topic for any of you searching for better MPG for the "X", lol:
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9551919888/m/5081949439

 

[budwich]

Yep... he's "knowledgeable" alright and uses good "facts" to make his "internet points". Anyways, good luck with your stuff. I suspect it will help a bit in slowing down rust process but won't stop it completely... is "slowing down" good enough??? guess it depends on your expectations.

 

[bluesman2333]

I still want to see a comparative study. Nowhere is side by side proof that one vehicle is more protected with it than without it. I don't think that proof can exist because the thing doesn't work as they claim. If this thing really does work, their web site would have a million pictures showing it.

 

[762mm]

I still want to see a comparative study. Nowhere is side by side proof that one vehicle is more protected with it than without it. I don't think that proof can exist because the thing doesn't work as they claim. If this thing really does work, their web site would have a million pictures showing it.

Haha... is it really that hard to fake such a comparison picture? I can make you a believable picture of a flying elephant in the next hour, lol... The presence or lack of any comparison pictures means nothing. And by the way, there are comparison pics on the original box (which by the way looks surprisingly sharp when compared to their substandard website).

The only pictures I will trust will be the ones I will take myself. Like I stated before, my parents have a similar vehicle with the same brand rotors, same size and same pads installed (bought more or less at the same time too, with equal wear), and the rotor is the only bare-metal exposed part I can think of (plus counteract puts a comparison picture of the insides of a brake drum on the box the product came in). My comparison truck doesn't have the electronic anti-rust device, and mine does. If there is any kind of protection on mine, then an even spread of a corossive liquid (salt + water) on the exposed/bare metal of each rotor should identify beyond any doubt if rust formation is the same or slower on my rotor. Only then will I be 100% convinced... However, I have no time to do the test right now, I barely have time to get some sleep nowdays... But rest assured I will conduct this test for our common benefit. I'll post the results/pics when I have them.