2001 XLT D44-SAS

[NOTAJP]

I just picked up a Ready Welder II from www.readywelder.com. Boy is this thing awesome. I can run MIG and Flux core wire. It'll go up to 1/2" and is portable. If you ever have any questions, call Don (CEO) at their 1-800 number on the website. Tell him Kent sent ya. What a guy and talk about customer service! OK, I'm done now.

 

[NOTAJP]

Originally posted by CoryL

Leaf can flex well, but a well build link system with the proper coils/coilovers will spank it any day. Plus there is no such thing as axlewrap.

Cory I respect you very highly in the industry. Just for the sake of my .02, I would argue with you. Personally, I think coil-overs are highly over-rated. I am impressed with the engineering that goes into all these buggies and what you have built.

Has anybody seen the article in Peterson's 4wheel a couple of months ago? I'll go look for it. It basicly compaired coil-overs to leafs. Interesting reading.

I'm not going to say much because my truck is still on jack stands. I have taken great care to place the the leafs just where they should be with ample flex. I look fwd to see how far I can take it. I'd like to build a coil-over sometime in the future just for the experience and something to play with. I'll also be the first to admit you were right it my project turns out to be a total failure.

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by NOTAJP
Cory I respect you very highly in the industry. Just for the sake of my .02, I would argue with you. Personally, I think coil-overs are highly over-rated. I am impressed with the engineering that goes into all these buggies and what you have built.

Bottom line is this.

If coilovers are overrated, why do virtually every Unlimited Class buggy in every rock crawling association run them? Why do virtually every vehicle that desert races run them?

None of the rock crawling guys have unlimited funding, so if leafs are just as good and a hell of a lot cheaper, why aren't they running them?

There are many reasons to run a link suspension with coilovers.

1) Wheelbase

You can easily have whatever wheelbase you want with better approach and departure angles.

2) No axle wrap

The links are the traction bars.

3) Potential for more flex

You can only deflect a rubber bushing in a leaf spring so much. Even with the "Orbit Eyes" you are still extremely limited.

4) Adjustability

You can usually alter your wheelbase between 2"-5" when running links that are either tapped or have welded in inserts.

5) Ride height adjustability

With coilovers you can easily change where the chassis sits in relation to the axles.

6) Dual and triple rate spring setups

Even more adjustability. You can also easily change to different spring rates.

7) Shock and springs are integrated

Tight little package where they move in the same plane. No need to worry about what size shock to run based on what springs you are using.



The biggest downside to running a coilover is that it tends to want to flop. This is why most of the rock guys are also running Currie Anti-Rock swaybars.

All in all it is a superior means of suspension than a leaf spring if you can design the links to match its potential.

 

[NOTAJP]

Thanks Cory.

I think I left out something. I meant that coil-overs are over rated to those of us building real world 4x4s and many of these are also daily drivers. The compairison the mag offered was on a CJ frame with all being as equal as possible, do we really need coil-overs and could just as much flex be achieved? Yes it's true. I think the technology is amazing, just don't see it on an above average 4x4 or average budget. Thanks again for the great info.

P.S. Sorry cdsl227 for pirating your thread.

 

[CoryL]

One thing to add...

All of the above, except #6 and #7, can be achieved with a traditional coil and shock setup at a substantially cheaper cost (in parts $$$, not time) than coilovers and probably about the same or less than leafs.

 

[NOTAJP]

I have no doubt, if I were to recomend a SAS to anybody I'd go with the EB setup with the dual rate coils and a wristed arm. I think it's my life goal to be a PITA and do something a little different.

 

[cdsl227]

Hey you guys can pirate this thread, kick around ideas...anything- because it all makes for good reading!

Believe me I've done so much reading about this that my brain is about to pop.

As far as welders...220 is a PITA for me because I'd have to have an outlet wired...all the walls are finished in the basement and I'm not trying to pop holes in them.

I bought a 115v welder...Lincoln WeldPak 3200.

It'll do 5/16 single pass, mig and flux core. I'm kinda liking the flux core though...just load the roll and cook! I know the mig would be cleaner, but the ease of flux core is great, besides the spatter can be stripped of in 5 minutes with a grinder.

Just makes for better prep for paint since you'd have to clean it up for paint anyway.

I look at it like this if I do the leaf sprung setup which I'm thinking would be simpler for me right now...and it doesn't do what I wanted or work out right- I've got the axle and simply have to convert it to setup the coil, but I think this'll do what I need.

Who knows after this I may go the route of the rest of you fiends! and get a zuki!

 

[JoshC]

Some correct me if i'm wrong, but when i bought my welder a few weeks ago they told me that the gas with the mig welder helps to keep the splatter down AND it makes it penetrate more. Flux core is gasless and does not penetrate as more, is this right?

 

[cdsl227]

Gas does keep the splatter down and makes for prettier welds, I'm not sure about better penetration though...I think, and I may be wrong, but that's a function of heat, flow and the puddle (molten metal). Preheating is the best way to get penetration.

And too much heat makes the metal brittle, but you can cure that by heating it cherry red and allowing it to cool slowly.

The gas isn't any good if you are in a situation where there is any kind of decent breeze...it's actually worse than flux core because the puddle will become porous...the flux core doesn't have that problem...even in windy areas flux core provides a nice solid puddle.

Ok, I've got my helmet on! Now you can beat me with the silly stick- if I'm wrong.

 

[NOTAJP]

Gas only keeps splatter down. I get plenty of penetration (no pun intended) with flux core. Norco actually talked me out of gas and try the flux core first. It has worked very well with my Ready Welder. I'm with cdsl227, I'm grinding everything anyway.

 

[DasFrem]

If you want to keep the SAS as simple as possible with the least ammount of fabrication then EB coil setup like on Taxxman's would be the easiest of choices. You could even go crazy and get some extended radius arms from www.jamesduff.com to make it even more bolt on.

SAS instructions:
Cut out x member, bolt on the raidus arms as far back or forward as the you want the axle to be. Install early explorer or ranger stearing box with drop pitman arm. Install coil buckets, install shock towers (from the ole' f250). Put in coils and shocks. Install drag link, using drag link as a guide install a trac bar that is the same lenth and runs parallel to the drag link.

The only real fabrication in the above setup is the trac bar mounts and the steering box install. When I helped out with Chris' (LizardTrac) SAS there was a ton more fabrication done. And we were learning everything about it along the way. Build it one way, realize it ain't gonna work that way, cut it apart, rebuild it...repeat several times over a couple of months...... When he was done it was worth it, he's now got a rig he beats the piss out of on a weekly basis, but it took alot of work to get it there.

You have a garage to work in right?

 

[JDraper]

Originally posted by cdsl227
....Who knows after this I may go the route of the rest of you fiends! and get a zuki! ....

Been there, done that...It's amazing what a Zuk will do for little $$$. I've got about $2500 total (including purchase price and a new head, radiator, and top) in this Zuk

 

[cdsl227]

Rear Perches.

Got the rear perches.

7" anit-wrap perches...they're longer and supposedly help control axle wrap. $45.00. And they allow for one inch forward or back.

Dead Link Removed

They look nice and now- but of course! A Question!

I was sitting under the back of the truck imagining my new rear bumper...and off course looking over the suspension and-

Looking at the plates for the spring packs...couldn't they be flipped and swapped side to side?? They look pretty beefy...and already have shock mounts integrated...with the added height it looks as though the shock angle woudn't be too bad. I know I might have to get longer U-Bolts, but the plates themselves look like they'd work out.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

That would give me someplace to mount shocks...at least until I decide how I'm going to mount the duals.

I'm almost tempted to do the SOA in the rear and run with one hell of a mean rake until I knock out the front.

 

[cdsl227]

Does anybody have an opinion on Buggy Leafs?

I was looking them over and wondering if they'd work for the front of an X.

They're adjustable and sure would make mounting the front springs easy as pie for the shackled end...just don't know if they're durable enough.

Opinions?? Anybody?

 

[JDraper]

In regards to flipping your shock plates, I think that's what Chris and Matt both did, and I seem to remember several others doing it too. It should work fine. The most common shock mount I've seen for an Explorer SOA is the mount that was meant for the rear swaybar. I think both Chris and Matt used that point too.

Another way to mount the shocks is buy SOA shock mounts from Rocky Road Outfitters. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and they are called "rear lower shock mounts". They should work with any steel axle tube. They are a 90° angle plate with a shock mount welded to it. You position them on your axle tube where you want them, and weld them on. That's what I have on my Zuk. It allows you to push the bottom of the shock out as far as possible for the most stability.

 

[DasFrem]

Oh, and what Jeff means by Chris and Matt is LizardTrac and DasFrem. Yeah, so far those shock mounts have worked great with no problems on or off road.

 

[JoshC]

Here is a picture of mine. I've since taken the mounts off and moved them to the other side of the sway bar mount. I wasn't to found of just using a bolt with only 1 side of pressure on it for my shock, but it does work cause that's the way everyone does it, but my lower shock mounts are now between the ubolts and sway bar mount.

 

[cdsl227]

Cool I thought they looked perfect for the job.

I'm gonna look at those mounts for the Zuki. The size will work for the 8.8?

And Josh- DAMN! Those are some thick azz blocks you got in there!

I'm hoping I don't have to put blocks in...I had mine re-arched and added a heavy leaf a long time ago, but they haven't flattened out at all yet.

I even had them curve the overload spring on the bottom...it gives it a nice refined BOUNCE when I hit dips.

Anybody think the Buggy Leaf setup could work on the front of a V8 - I'm feeling it may be too much weight.

The only ones I've seen were made for 4 and 6 cylinder engines, but they are smooth and allow for an extra 2 inches of drop.

 

[NOTAJP]

Originally posted by cdsl227


Anybody think the Buggy Leaf setup could work on the front of a V8 - I'm feeling it may be too much weight.

The only ones I've seen were made for 4 and 6 cylinder engines, but they are smooth and allow for an extra 2 inches of drop.

I think the buggy spring is a great idea. I had thought about it and may in the future. I talked myself out of it (don't know why now). The kits you see for 4 and 6 cylinder engines are for Wranglers. The difference between the kits are how they mount to the frame on the Wrangler. The buggy spring does not hold any weight in normal driving conditions as it sits against the frame. When the axle drops from under the truck, the weight is let off and the buggy spring lowers to allow more articulation. I have seen these same buggy springs mounted under V8 JPs with great results. You will just have to think a little more to mount them on your frame to place the shackle correctly.

 

[cdsl227]

Originally posted by NOTAJP
I think the buggy spring is a great idea. I had thought about it and may in the future. I talked myself out of it (don't know why now).

I know they'll take more thought to get mounted, but I see a lot of promise in them.

I was just a little concerned with the day-to-day pounding in the street.

The ones under the V8?? Were they made for the V8 or just the 6 cylinder adapted over?