4.0 OHV Timing Cover & Gasket Issues

[Cuco]

A little late, but here's the write up.

So I took out the radiator, alternator, idler assembly, fan, water pump, and here we are at the final stage.

I have an old section of molded heater hose that used to go from the water pump to the heater vacuum operated heater valve. The Outer Diameter of this hose is a perfect "snug" fit to stick through the water passage holes and into the block. It's duct taped to the hose of my Harbor Freight wet/dry vacuum. Turn on the vacuum, and suck out all of the remaining anti-freeze in the block, so it doesn't contaminate the motor oil in the pan when the Timing Cover is removed. Works like a charm ;-)

I took the Timing Cover off, and this is what I found.
A cracked & torn Timing Cover Gasket at exactly the point where I had the oil leak.

REMEMBER: The Timing Cover is shown FACE DOWN.

I cleaned and prepped the block bolt holes and bolts (see 1st post in this thread as well as the original write up), and for this reinstall, based on my internet research, I chose to do three things differently this time around from my first write up.

1st) I used Loctite Blue on ALL of the bolts. In my first write up - all bolts were installed "dry".

2nd) I torqued down the (5) Oil Pan Bolts FIRST. This was done in two sequences.

3rd) I torqued down the Timing Cover Bolts SECOND. This was done in three sequences. I used a black "sharpie" and made a "hash mark" next to each bolt so that I didn't lose track. I used a quasi "X" pattern when tightening the bolts (bottom left/top right) (top left/bottom right) and so on so that the torque was evenly distributed across the Timing Chain Cover.

When done, I chose to let the mounted Timing Chain Cover sit overnight so that the Loctite on the bolts could could cure, and the following morning I installed the water pump and all the sub assemblies.

I hope that this write up saves someone the headache I experienced!

excellent mechanic skills

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

@fast_dave, @Runnin'OnEmpty
Much appreciated!
Today is the day.
I'll hit the surfaces one last time with LT after I pour some oil into the pan to clean out little stuff that may have fallen in there.
I need some blue loctite and it'll be time to put it back together.
we'll see how it goes. :/ Somehow I feel like it's not going to go perfectly smoothly. ha.
I'll let you know.

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Ok.....so far so good. (as far as I know )
• Put the timing chain, sprockets and guides on (ALMOST forgot to pull the pin on the tensioner...oh man)
Torqued all that to spec - Thanks to @Runnin'OnEmpty for all the torque specs (put a little 243 blue loctite on all these..just a little)
- Cam sprocet bolt (Torx 55) 44 to 50 ft lbs
- Chain guide (Torx 40) and Tensioner bolts (10mm) torque at 84-108 INCH-lbs and 84-96 INCH-lbs respectively
Almost screwed this up and did FOOT pounds, but it was INCH pounds. big...big...BIG difference. ha.
- On my engine, even though it's a 95, the sprocket set was a 93. Which means that there is no "keyway" on the lower drive shaft sprocket. THAT means I had to take off the key to get the sprocket off. Putting the key back on took alot longer than I thought it would.

• Bought the cheapest oil I could find, poked a small hole in the top and squirted it with some pressure down into the oil pan to wash any little pieces of crap that may have fallen in there down to the drain plug.

@fast_dave
• Cleaned all the gasket facings (engine and cover) with brake cleaner and LT. Wiped them til the rag came up clean.

• Used the air compressor to blow out the bolt holes

• Used the thicker Gasket and put Ultra Copper (not too much...I don't think anyway) on either side and the underside (oil pan side)

• I had the water pump on there but was able to get the cover on without TOO much trouble putting in one of the longer bolts on the far top right and lowest left bolt holes.

• Hand tightened the bolts and then torqued in the lower (oil pan) bolts first then went around the timing cover bolts (10mm and 13mm) in a star pattern starting with 10lbs, then 12, then 15.

• It got dark. Time for beer.

I don't see any "extra parts" lying around. So that is good.
Tomorrow it'll be Harmonic balancer time.
Once that thing is on (I forgot to put in the crank seal...but I can do that before the balancer goes on I think.) then....put the radiator back on and change out the thermostat, drain the oil, fill it back up with radiator fluid and see if it holds water without pressure. If it does, I'll drain the oil, was going to buy 4 qts of CHEAP oil, Run it and see if it holds water under pressure. Then change out the cheap oil for the good stuff and at that point change the oil filter.
Thinking being that maybe some left over crap would get caught up in the old oil filter and may as well have it stuck in there rather than the new one.
This all ASSUMES that some how I didn't screw up the timing messing with the sprockets and chain.

I did do one thing that seemed to help me out as I took things apart. I traced the timing cover gasket onto the cover of the box it came in and stuck all the timing cover bolts into that in order.
Then as I was putting it back together, I knew which one went where. Then as I was torquing things down, I'd check off whatever bolt I just torqued and then diagonally across to get one on the other side in the star pattern. Each time I made a pass (10lb, 12lb, 15lb) I put a slash next to that bolt on the cover. That way I was sure to get them all torqued in order and sequentially. Not sure if I needed to do that but I didn't lose any bolts so that was good.

well....hopefully I didn't screw up and miss some huge thing. But....we'll see tomorrow.
Thanks again!

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Ok......
Well......Something may have gone wrong.
At the moment I'm faced with a fairly crappy decision unless I can identify what is going on.
So I waited a day for the RTV to cure and went to look again before I put everything back on.
Looking closely....there APPEARS to be a piece of the gasket that SOMEHOW got forced out from one section of the facing.
I can't figure out if what I'm looking at is gasket or something else. I'll take a picture and if anyone can identify it as anything but the gasket that would be great. However.....I may have to take the cover off and do this again. (if it is the gasket)

I just can't figure out how it could have happened especially where it did.
I put RTV on the gasket, stuck it to the cover and then put RTV on the other side of the gasket.
Put 2 bolts through both the cover and the gasket and slowly moved the cover onto the block...with the bolts sticking through both the cover and the gasket and then into the block.
Pushed the thing against the block, fed in the rest of the bolts (not screwing them down...just feeding them in and hand tightening thehm in an effort to align and seat the gasket.
THEN started to screw things down in a star pattern to get an even pressure.
how one side got messed up is beyond me.

It's not TOTAL disaster if it IS the gasket. Since I haven't put the balancer back on or anything else.
No oil, no radiator fluid no nothing.
Worst case scenario I have to put that off, clean that surface again, get another gasket and that blows....but it could be worse.
I was going to just put it all back together and take my chances...but I'll run it by you all first to see if there's any other possible thing it could be.

Man...this year has been a trial. ha. This is just ONE of a bunch of frustrating things that's going on.
But....I guess things could be way worse. This is not so bad in the "big picture".
ok...I'll get a picture up here soon and we'll see if there's any other explanation.

Meanwhile...I'm trying to finish painting a house before it gets too cold but it won't STOP RAINING!!!!! AAAAAAARRRRGH! ha.
This is life right. If there are no challenges...it gets really boring.
ok...I'll get a picture up here as soon as I get a giant cup of coffee in me.
thanks again.

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Just figured it out while uploading these pictures. So the Felpro gasket is skinny in that area and for whatever reason the Mahle just goes straight down. PHEW!!!! I could NOT for the life of me figure out how that had happened.
But...it's just the way the Mahle gasket is made as opposed to the Felpro.
Disaster averted.
On to next disaster.

 

[fast_dave]

@FlipPhoneHoldOut ,

Nice pics

OK - As long as the gasket lines up on the "inside" border of the timing case, the overhang on the "outside" of the timing case doesn't present any problem.

In fact, the overhang on the timing case could be associated with making a thicker gasket in a critical/high chance of breakage area, OR, it could be a Multi-Application gasket (I know that the OHC and SHOC share some components / have similar components - i.e. Oil Pan).

In closing - as pictured - I've seen this before; there is no problem with that gasket overhanging the "outside" of a gasketed area, as long as the inside area is covered in total.

Hope I save you some unnecessary re-work!

BTW: When I review you pics of the Mahle vs Fel-Pro, I see the Mahle has an imprinted channel on the gasket surface, so as to in effect "hold onto" the RTV and thus prevent the gasket from slipping out over time.

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Good news thanks.
yea that was depressing for a while. But good to go.

one thing now though....I'm trying to figure how far to push in that crank seal.
I know I don't want it to rub up against the plastic part of the balancer that to sticks into the opening of the timing cover.
I thought maybe THAT would just push it in to the right depth...but then it would be touching it and that would be bad.
There's a little bevel on the entrance to the timing cover crank opening. push the thing in just beyond that?
Seems like it should be in farther than that? The depth of that hole is about twice that depth of the seal...so I'm figuring....the face of the seal a little less than half way in to keep it within the hole but not touching the plastic part of the balancer?

 

[fast_dave]

@FlipPhoneHoldOut ,

Good to hear that you didn't tear everything apart. In this case, the Mahle Timing Cover Gasket seal is a better quality & engineered gasket than the Fel-Pro offering!

OK - so you're almost out of the Rubicon.

Go back and look at my pics in Write Up 1 & 2 (ON A COMPUTER) - not a phone

I understand your problem - BUT - for Write-Up 1, I measured the depth of the Original/OEM seal, and used that measurement to install my Replacement seal.

Also, what I did different than you; I installed my Crank Seal seal on the Timing Cover before fastening the Timing Cover to the Engine Block, so as to ensure that I installed the Crank Seal perfectly square to the bore/hole in the Timing Cover. I was able to look at both sides of the seal and perform some 360 degree measurements.

For write-up 2, my Crank Seal installed in Write-Up 1 wasn't leaking, so I left it in place. I've learned, only through experience, that when you have a good one - don't F with it.

OK - so I thought of this - there should be a faint wear line on you Crank Pulley where it came in contact with the original Crank Seal.

ALSO, maybe there's a chance that you didn't polish out the hole in the Timing Cover where the seal goes - so therefore you should be able to see "weather" exposed aluminium patina VS clean aluminium finish (the area where the old seal would have resided will be clean). To clarify; The depth of the weathered pantina finish is therefore the depth of the FACE of your new Crank Seal - Kapish?!?!

Take a break - stand back, take some comparative depth measurements. Basically, the faint wear mark on the pulley snout and then use that measurement to figure the depth that the seal should be in the timing cover.By way of some slow & methodical depth measuring you should be able to get in the ballpark and figure this all out!

Don't rush this last part, or you'll go from a leaking Timing Cover Gasket to a leaking Crankshaft Seal!

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

I was pretty sure this part would be easy. ha.
As I was about to put that thing in there I realized it can't just be anywhere...or "flush" with the top.
I was just measuring that groove depth on the balancer. I'll get it. I have some ideas.
At least I've got the balancer heating up. got it in front of the heater vent. Should be nice and expanded by the time I get around to that. well....getting there anyway. Of course I have to leave now and can't finish this tonight. But...THIS WEEK for sure. And as usual...thanks again!

 

[fast_dave]

My Balancer - from Write-Up 1 (Need photobucket fix in Chrome to see)

Area between rust/pantina and directly in front of baked on oil film = Crank Seal Area.

Also from Write-Up 1; To install Balancer: Place Balancer Assembly in oven for 1/2 an hour at 250 Degrees, and it will slip on it's entire length effortlessly.

LINK to Write-Up 1: Removing timing cover on 4.0 OHV

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

This was my junkyard "depth gauge".
I probably could have come up with something better but I got impatient.
seemed to work.
That PVC fit exactly inside the hole after a little sanding.
I tried to set the seal back just a hair so that the new seal might ride on the original diameter of the crank and not in the groove the old one made. It really didn't make MUCH of a groove in there. It was barely there. But there.
Got things pretty much ready to go now. Put in a new thermostat.
I'm letting the RTV set up on the crank seal so when I put the balancer back in there's less of a chance I'll knock it out of place if I hit it accidentally.
tomorrow is "put it together and see if it leaks" day.

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Car is all put back together.
Only 2 small "extra parts". 2 rubber O rings.
That threw me into a panic for a minute thinking that they were supposed to go inside the engine.
But...turns out they are supposed to go into the transmission line adpapter fittings on the new radiator.
That's not THAT big a deal. I'm lucky to have noticed them at all.
So I did the "bake the balancer in the oven at 250" thing and that seemed to help.
it didn't go on as easy as some people had. But it did go on fairly easy. MUCH easier than taking the thing off that's for sure.
It's been one thing after another delaying the day of reckoning. But tomorrow will be the day.
Got oil in it, and only thing left to do is drop in the coolant then fix the O ring situation and I'll crank it up.
If I didn't screw up the timing somehow, it'll start and....then if I didn't drop a bolt into the pan it'll run...and if I did the gasket right...it'll hold water and oil.
Thanks for the help so far.
Either I'll have a running car or a brand new expensive lawn ornament.
Tomorrow is really the day.
We'll see!

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

I need a couple things from the parts place before finishing today.
But one thing I'll mention in case anyone else comes across this.
This isn't about the timing cover. It's the radiator.
I took the old one out and got a mid priced new one. The old one was ok. The new one had the build quality of a TOY!
Everything is plastic and aluminum and seems like it'll break.
I figured the brass adapters for the cooling lines should thread in all the way like they did on the old one..
Forget it. I F'd up the top one trying to get it flush like the one on the old radiator. The threads in the new one just can't take it.
There is actually a warning about this on the radiator. But I figured the thing would thread in all the way before I'd have to worry. Not so. I think if I tried to get it flush, the ENTIRE piece I'm screwing into would literally crack right out of the plastic housing.
Instead of getting a new radiator, I'm going to get just a new adapter, coat the threads with RTV and see if it holds.
Some of the threads off the bottom of the inlet are broken out and stuck in the adapter threads.
Jeez. Of all the things I thought I'd have a problem with, this is not one of them.
anyway...new radiators apparently are throw-away pieces of plastic junk.
That was news to me.

 

[974X4BLACKSPORT]

WHen I had to replace the rad. on my 97', I went with the two row model exactly like the factory one installed, I got it from RA and it is made by TYC, and is exactly the same in every way (aluminium core, plastic tanks) and it cools just as good if not better than the stock factory one that started to leak at the gasket between the plastic tanks and aluminum core. When it came time to replace the radiator in my 2000 GTP, I ordered from RA and got the one made by TYC, again perfect fit and has been working great ever since.
I am for one am glad the industry has moved from the copper,brass,solder radiators of the past, they were big, heavy, and inefficient compared to today's radiators.

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Leak.
Ok...it's going to be a winter lawn ornament.
I can't spend any more time or money on this right now.
Downside: hundreds of dollars and no working car....yet.
Upside: I'm getting to the car really well...and in the spring, it'll take me 1/4 of the time to get everything off.
For the time being...the Chevy gets the only space in the garage.
Here's hoping the chevy lasts the winter.
Thanks for all the help though.
Not a total disaster. Just a temporary disaster.

 

[fast_dave]

@FlipPhoneHoldOut

Get back on the horse - you're so close!!!!!!

Why can't you put the old radiator back in - since you wrote it's A-OK?!?!

Is that the only thing that's leaking or is there more to the story - I see the "angry" emoji?!?!?!

Obviously you're pretty hot right now, so when you cool down tell me what's up.

And if something is wrong with the original radiator as well, @974X4BLACKSPORT has had good luck with TYC Parts from Rock Auto, and so have I! I have a TYC Fuel Pump in my Ex.

TYC is a Tier 1 OEM Supplier for Navistar, Daimler, Ford, Suzuki, Jaguar and Harley-Davidson, and are now branching out into the aftermarket.

Rock Auto has partnered up with them, and is now selling TYC parts to retail customers.

TYC's radiator for your '95 w/ Auto Trans is TYC 1728 = $121.79

Here's a 5% off discount code from Rock Auto

5% Discount Code: 7218F8D293D908
Expires: October 23, 2019

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

I appreciate that.
but the leak is not coming from the radiator or the hoses unfortunately.
That part seems ok.
It looks like somehow somewhere along the stuff I re-did on the seal.
I didn't do something right and.....got a leak.
It's frustrating and maddening. But I don't have the time to tear it down again right away.
I leave in a couple days for a job out of town that'll last a couple weeks and there's just a million things to do beforehand that I've been putting off to work on the car.
I have the other car that works (right now anyway) so I can get around.
If October and November are mild... I'll get back at it.

The Ford is outside and is going to stay there for the winter.
I knew this could happen so I put it out of my way just in case.
When I get back on it I'll keep you posted.
again....I do appreciate all the help!
I can't get rid of the car. It was my Dad's car and I have nostalgic attachment to it so one day IT'LL RUN!!!
I just can't put any more time into it right now. I got to make some money.

 

[fast_dave]

@FlipPhoneHoldOut

Damn - I've been following all of your updates, and you were doing everything correct - right down to "mapping" the timing chain bolts you were torquing down and how many times you torqued them. I didn't see anything that stood out as a possible problem, and when I read your post about the timing cover gasket - I was literally on edge and hoping that you'd check into the forum before tearing everything down. I was happy when I read that you got my post "just in time" - it made my afternoon. Well, I hear you, you gotta do what you gotta' do - and time is obviously ticking fast. Report back when work slows down and I'll walk through it with you. Sorry for your bad luck - I'm bummed out for you as well...

Hope you have a good trip and stay safe - see you back here in Oct/Nov!

 

[FlipPhoneHoldOut]

Thanks!
Yea...I was so careful I don't get it. ???
I missed something obviously.
But I'll be back.
This forum has been no end of help so far for sure!
I saw a video on someone tearing this engine down and I wanted to do the same thing.
I have plans to get into the top end at some point and I'm kind of stoked about that.
There's some clicking in there. And the head gaskets (along with some other stuff) should probably be replaced.
The fun never ends.
Eventually I want the thing to be my dependable daily driver again.
It was for close to 10 years!
The Ford will live again!

 

[RussAdams]

The Ford will live agaagain

Hey there FlopPhoneHoldOut:

Did you ever get back to the Ford and get that leak sealed?

I find myself in the same unfortunate position after changing my cover gasket with a Mahle.

I'm currently on my second attempt.

Thread showing my leak after replacing gasket the first time