ABS - Who needs it?

[storlied]

Horses smell.
Anyways... I simply just want someone.. or hell.. even I will do it when winter hits if anyone really wants. Tests should be done by the end user to determine ABS capability. To prove what everyone, well... nvm... a good portion of people* already know. It's good for some things, and not so good for others. Depends on how you drive, what the conditions are and how the situation is handled.

You just need to accept that you're not perfect, and it can and will help you when you cannot help yourself.

 

[Rudy602]

I don't need to accept that I'm not perfect because I never thought I was. Where did that come from? Why so much animosity? Again many thanks to wood1, I think that washboard effect may have had something to do with my bad experience because it was a dirt road. Maybe not, but at least it's a good posibility. I assume the technology for ABS will continue to improve but the ABS in my '97 reminds me of the CD players when they first came out - every time you hit a bump or washboard they would skip. So would I rather listen to a cassette tape that doesn't skip or a CD that does? - just because it's an "advancement" - some people need the latest thing whether it works well or not, something for everyone, right?

 

[Rudy602]

storlied, please don't take this personally, I appreciate your input and agree with the good sometimes/not so good othertimes, but the only thing about the cones and parking lot test is that I do a lot of driving that isn't in parking lots. I think maybe that's where all those stats came from in the first place. I agree that a computer can regulate the modulation and switch back and forth with single wheel braking etc.etc.etc. I never thought otherwise. I just think things are different out in the jungle and like you, I live off the beaten path. The things that are designed for the masses who never see anything but pavement don't always work so well when you rough it up and get it dirty. In the mean time, since we're the guinea pigs, your cutout switch sounds like the best idea. One sad thing I noticed while reviewing this thread is that it seemed some people who found plenty of time and ways to tell me what a moron I am for my take on the ABS, couldn't find any time to help me try to fix it when I asked. I appreciate the info. from all who did respond, even the nasty ones, and I hope that as people have more experiences with their ABS, good or bad, they share them with the rest of us so we can all benefit. A special thank you to 95 ExpLim who found the time for both helping and commenting, wood1 - I think you nailed it with the washboard thing, and trolling for the ABS equipped Kool-Aid video - very nice.

 

[Naasau]

True and its especially useful for drivers who cant regulate their braking. but I don't think vehicle ABS is an annoyance at all.. the way i see it, a car equipped with ABS is annoyed at the person sitting behind the wheel and how poor of a driver he/she is that the car has to help and it kick the ABS on to modulate the brakes to avoid an accident.

Well said Trolling.

It sounds to me like Rudy's ABS isn't malfunctioning, it is just a much older design. From my experience, when the ABS kicks in on my '93, it unlocks the drivers side front (completely- as in free spin), then re-locks it as it unlocks the passenger side front, then re-locks it as it unlocks the rear drum brakes, then repeats something on the order of 140 times per second. Which boils down to a very fast and well orchestrated brake 'pumping' technique, which I always thought was pure idiocy. Newer ABS systems and vehicles that include traction control can modulate the brake pressure sent to each wheel independently and can 'thresh-hold brake' each one, which is indeed awesome and far superior to what a human can do. However, 1st and even most 2nd generation ABS systems are not that discriminatory or effective. Therefor, while I completely agree that 9 out of 10 drivers should never be without ABS, especially if they are used to it, I fully believe that every one of those people should use the latest technology of it, as the earlier conceptions seem to me to not just be sub-par, but downright scary.
Fansubs: New ABS = Good. Old ABS = Janky.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't ABS an option for the 1st gen Explorers? So to who-ever suggested that an insurance company would drop you for removing it, would they then chose not to insure the same vehicle that didn't come with ABS? Seems to be shaky ground on which to stand.

Also, as a point of interest, my wife owns a 2006 Heep Rubicon w/ the 6-speed manual tranny, and those don't even offer ABS as an option.
Oh, and in the 55k miles that we have both driven in downtown traffic and through the Rocky Mountains, complete with snow/ice/hell, we've never hit anyone or anything, and I am way more confident driving it than I am of my X (with ABS) at the moment, even though all the weight of the Heep is up front so it gets damned squirrelly damned quick on Ice.

So I guess what it comes down to with all the heated arguments is that Rudy should remove his ABS or upgrade it to a much newer design, then we can all be happy.

 

[unclemeat]

My 91 Sport came stock with rear ABS. The insuance companies give or gave a discount for ABS. Or in other words, a Rubicon without ABS pays more for insurance.

Even the 1st gen rear ABS is effective and has saved my ass before. My 04 level II Ranger has 2nd gen technology, and it gets driven in low traction environments constantly. The ABS only activates if I make a braking mistake.

Yes I know the difference. I had a 96 Mustang that did not have ABS, and yes I felt that I had more and better brake control. But it was just a feeling. The fact of the matter that a proper functioning ABS is superior to the best driver for safety and braking distance.

One last thing that has not been mentioned. ABS allow you to steer under extreme braking conditions. RUDY listen closely, nobody can steer when the front wheels are locked up, sliding. But anyone can steer when the ABS is engaged, rolling.

Perhaps rudy should consult the mythbusters, maybe thay can debunk you myth.

 

[Rudy602]

Naasau, thanks for the info on the hows and whys, makes sense to me. I didn't think you could buy anything w/o ABS anymore. Apparently I'm not the only one who's not completely sold on the idea of ABS. My evil twin must be working at Jeep research and design. I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind their decision not to even offer it as an option. Perhaps to tap a niche market of competant drivers? I'm not sure it's a practical upgrade at this point in my Ex's life, but if it would smooth any ruffled feathers, I could say I did. Any idea how much $ and what's involved?

 

[storlied]

I'd say maybe because they are leaning toward the off-road crowd more than anything and ABS is just no good off-road under most circumstances. I know the new F150 Raptor has an ABS switch, for street vs off-road... it re-maps how it reacts accordingly.

ABS is just a control system. I drive with and without it, as I've said before.. depending on what's going on around me. I've even driven without it when I should have probably had it on but I know what to expect without ABS and I know how to deal with it. I think that's where the biggest problem comes is people are used to all these nifty little features... take them away and where do they end up? In the ditch. Like power steering... kill it on someone and they're gonna most likely assume the steering is completely locked... it's not, it just takes a lot more effort. [depending on speed but let's not get into specifics here] That can go for plenty of other features, ABS, TCS.. LSD even as it changes the way the vehicle handles the road on turns vs an open for example.

I'm not trying to pick sides here, hell .. I'm on both... I do and do not like ABS... so I have a switch to use or not use it. The reason I got on your case, and probably most others here.. is because you're simply trying to choose only one side. For the safety of you and others... at least make it a choice. It CAN be useful in some places. Maybe you'll find yourself in a traction loss situation in the city, close traffic... ABS can definitely prove it's worth there. Much like the pole, I've found myself inches away from other vehicles when ABS kicked in.. which I know wouldn't have been possible without ABS... I would have probably been in an accident. While you're out and about in the middle of nowhere on complete crap... maybe you'll find yourself turning off the ABS to deal with it yourself rather than have the computer assume what's going on and take control of the situation in a way that should be different. Get what I'm saying?

 

[Rudy602]

unclemeat, like storlied said, depending on the conditions and circumstances, ABS can help you or hurt you. Your fact of the matter boils down to an opinion and I thank you for your opinion but my [and others] experience has shown some flaws in the system. My personal choice [with the old ABS technology] is to bet on my own driving ability because it has served me well over the years and my ABS almost killed me so it isn't even a hard choice. I have some newer tech. ABS in an RX Lexus that bothers me much less because it hardly ever kicks in. [which is the only time it bothers me]

 

[Rudy602]

Yeah storlied I get what you mean, you snuck your post in ahead of me on that last one so you can see on that and other posts I've stated how I think it's good for some people some conditions sometimes, maybe the thread title is a little inflammatory but no need for anyone to get too heated up, right? It did provoke some dialog that at least I have found helpful and I bet other's have too. [or at least they were entertained for a while] I sure know a lot more about the subject now which is what I was really looking for not just a bunch of people to agree with me.

 

[Rudy602]

Maybe I'm just trying to stir the pot but all this controversy got me motivated to do some googling and apparently the controversy doesn't end here. The only insurance company now offering a discount for ABS nationwide is Allstate. Others have reduced or eliminated it entirely. There have been class action suits but don't hold your breath waiting for them to notify you. Even the dreaded subject of which is more effective ABS or standard goes back and forth way more than even I expected. Too many stats boggle my small brain but apparently ABS hasn't saved the insurance companies any money because there are still just as many fatalaties with ABS so it's future might not be written in stone after all. As you could guess there is a lot of info out there so you have to weed out the stuff sponsored by the people profiting from it. One had pretty balanced stats: www.aa1car.com/library/abs98f.htm I know the link is easier but I'm a moron so type it in or google up your own site. My eyes are blurry from all those stats. That whole concept of just stomping on the pedal and letting the little black box take over just seems counter-intuitive. It's not an intergalactic spaceship, it's an Ex. In any case, it seems like it's not just me. Oh look it turned into a link! Thanks.

 

[Trolling]

watch on...



this demonstrates how ABS can be a life saver. Watch closely at the 25 second mark:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/560B1B84912643BEB30BACD5BC388586/anti-lock-brake-system-exoti.aspx



a comprehensive analysis of the effectiveness of ABS: http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html



What no Anti-Lock brakes look like (older model explorer used) note: click on the link to youtube to watch:




more:

 

[Rudy602]

Good video example of pros and cons. Like I said you have to weed out the ones put out by the people profiting from it 'cause your unlikely to get an unbiased view - like the old cigarette commercials - "it helps digestion" or spraying DDT for mosquitos. There have been a lot of "advancements" over the years that later turned out to be not so hot after all. I don't know if ABS falls into this category or not, I think the jury is still out. If the insurance companies are bailing, something is amiss. Seems like in the unbiased video the car w/o ABS stopped faster if you don't just stomp the pedal and lock them up, threshold braking I think he called it. I would like to see it as an option instead of just having it forced on me. I think it isn't as cut and dried as some may think though we're all entitled to our own point of view, even me.

 

[Mbrooks420]

I don't think the insurance companies are bailing, I think it's more that virtually all cars have it now. No where does it recommend slamming on the brakes just because you have ABS. With a properly working system they should hardly ever come on.

 

[RockyMtnHigh]

I have ABS in both my right and left foot from years of SCCA road racing. After a while you get good at stopping...

For the average street driver it is probably good. But I do hate that feeling when there is an event and I hit the brakes and it does its own thing.

MOTC

 

[95ExpLim]

Another opinion

I've been reading this thread since its inception and the two sides of it seem to be:

One side says ABS kicked in and helped save my bacon.

The other says -damn, ABS kicked in...I must not be as good a driver as I thought I was...

For some people that is a harsh wake up. Get over it.

 

[Rudy602]

I wish I could even think that abs had ever "saved my bacon" but in my case it was more of a "nearly burnt my bacon" I don't expect anyone will change their mind. We all know what we like and what we don't and for all the stats that say X, there's just as many to say Y. One interesting thing I found researching this topic [on the advice of some members] is that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration [relatively unbiased since they don't make or sell ABS, they just cow-tow to insurance companies] decided to "defer indefinately" the decision to mandate ABS giving three reasons:
1) While statistics showed ABS equipped vehicles reduced some types of crashes, it increased others. The number of fatalaties remained relatively unchanged.
2) Automakers will probably equip cars voluntarily.
3) Couldn't justify the cost/benefit analysis

 

[Rudy602]

Mbrooks - if you watch the first of trolling's videos, sponsored by ABS manufacturer Continental/Teves, their instructions for getting the full benefit of your abs brakes are: "Stomp - Stay - Steer" I didn't make it up. Neither did I invent the part about the insurance companies bailing on the discounts. Allstate is the only one left offering the discounts nationwide. Most or all of the others only offer the discounts where it is mandated by state law. Thats - New York, Florida, and one other, I think Illinois but I could be wrong. Independent research seems much more skeptical about the benefits of ABS than the kool-aid serving manufacturers and profiteers.

 

[Mbrooks420]

I'm not much concerned what it says in a video. If I look long enough I could find 100 places where it says to never stomp on your brakes. What does it say about braking in your Ford manual? I'm positive it doesn't say "Hey we have amazing ABS, stomp away"

I stand behind them dropping the discounts because it no longer makes sense. Why give a discount when virtually every car qualifies? That'd be like giving a discount to drivers who have legs.

 

[Rudy602]

I think they base their discounts on what saves them money not the number of cars that qualify. If ABS saved them money, they would want every car to have it and would offer everyone a discount. Obviously it isn't saving them money so the've bailed on the discounts. It's a "numbers thing".

 

[Mbrooks420]

Of course it's a "numbers thing". It saves them money by NOT giving a discount. If 99% of cars qualify for a discount, wouldn't a discount cost them money? Offing a discount has no upside. You can't add ABS, and no one would look for a car that qualifies just for the discount.