AGR pump installed; air leak? Please Help! | Page 2 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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AGR pump installed; air leak? Please Help!

Thanks for chiming in, sir!

1) During your bleeding process, (as mentioned by others) did you start the engine and turn the steering wheel lock-to-lock a few times?

After the initial bleeding with the engine off, I did turn it lock to lock a few times, but did not hold on the lock. Once I began to hear the pump buzz when turning, I slowly turned the other direction. I repeated this until the pump quieted further. If I continue this for a while, without a vacuum pump attached, it will eventually whine and I will find aerated fluid.

EDIT: This was done at idle. If I do it with increased rpm, the pump begins to moan more quickly, within a few seconds.

2) When the pump is squealing and you are traveling at a low speed, is the steering pressure gone (difficult to steer) or does it still steer like the power steering system is still working properly?

The steering is extremely strong, effortless, and smooth, even while moaning. There is a resonance that I feel in the steering wheel around 1250 rpm due to noise. Other than that, I'm very pleased with the physical performance, just not the aeration nor "wake up the neighbors" noise.
 



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The steering is extremely strong, effortless, and smooth, even while moaning. There is a resonance that I feel in the steering wheel around 1250 rpm due to noise. Other than that, I'm very pleased with the physical performance, just not the aeration nor "wake up the neighbors" noise.
My guess is is that the main shaft's bearing is no longer supporting the shaft properly. This probably destroyed the seal and the vibration you feel is from the shaft wobbling under load.

I hate to say this but find another pump and replace. That AGR pump is probably toast.
 






That AGR pump is probably toast.

Just to be thorough, have you ever had any rack air leaks? I'm sure they're possible, but is it likely since the previous pumps fluid wasn't aerated?

I'll call AGR again tomorrow and see if I can get a warranty replacement.

I'll fill you all in tomorrow. Thank you again for all the help!

ERUSH
 






Just to be thorough, have you ever had any rack air leaks? I'm sure they're possible, but is it likely since the previous pumps fluid wasn't aerated?
If you didnt touch the rack during install of the pump, probability wise, I doubt the rack is leaking. I know you mentioned that you replaced the lines but that was after the symptoms. The leak is probably at the pump's seal - as was the case in that link you posted in reply #17.
 






By the way, next time you bleed the system and before you put the serpentine belt back on, fill the reservoir and rotate the pump's pulley by hand a few dozen times to get the pump to suck in some fluid. Eventually, the pump will probably become too difficult to rotate by hand so you can stop rotating the pulley at that point. But this process should speed up the bleeding process since you won't have to wait for the fluid to make its way through the pump's vanes simply by gravity. The overall purpose of this process is to get fluid into the pump's chamber so that the vane's dont scrape against the wall when centrifugal force pushes them outwards. Any air bubbles in the system will go towards the steering rack (and into the reservoir) since its pretty much impossible for fluid (or air) to travel backwards through the pump once the engine is running.
 






Update:

Called AGR again, and they suggested I use the heaviest, thickest, nastiest grease liberally around all the fittings, both on the rack and on the pump. Any pock marks in the grease indicates the air leak. Then, he said, if there is no evidence of an external air leak, he'll take the pump back and send a new one.

I'll bleed (yet again), apply grease, and report back.
 






Update (2):

I greased every fitting: rack lines, hose connections, flare fittings, etc. Ran the engine and went through the bleed procedure. No change. No pock marking around the grease.

Has to be the pump.

I should note that my hand vacuum pump can no longer suck air out of the reservoir fast enough. At first, I could achieve 20 in-Hg vacuum which would slowly rise as the air was drawn out of the fluid. Now, I can't get past 10 in-Hg vacuum even when pumping as fast as I can.

I am now also finding a slightly wet pump shaft and a P/S fluid droplet on the bottom of the pump, but I'm not sure if this is from a possible leak or my own sloppiness in cleaning up...

The AGR technicians are very friendly, knowledgeable, and willing to solve the problem. Even if this is a bad pump, I still give them high praise for their enthusiasm toward my satisfaction. :thumbsup: Let's see how this return process goes...
 






Let us know how it goes with the replacement.
 






Pump Removed

I successfully removed the pump and mailed it to AGR for a warranty replacement.

In so doing, I removed the Amsoil fluid in hope I could reuse it; however, here is what came out:

IMG_1001.jpg


And that, my friends, is what burnt P/S fluid looks like. Aerated fluid causes the fluid to overheat and discolor. I should probably call this B/S fluid ;)

Another flush is in order with this expensive fluid :mad:

I should have taken pictures of the pump (my hands were pretty greasy), but I noticed the shaft seal seemed to be pressed in crooked; its outer metal sheath was not correctly mated against the pump body. I'd bet money this is the culprit.

More to come.
 






...I wish you would have gotten pictures too..:(

...About how many miles did you wind up putting on that new pump?
 






...I wish you would have gotten pictures too..:(

...About how many miles did you wind up putting on that new pump?

It started to rain just as I was finishing... the pump quickly went in a few garbage bags, and I didn't think to take any pictures... I didn't want my tools all wet.

I estimate about 75 miles went on the pump: two round trips to work @ 15 miles each way = 60 miles, plus about another 15 miles of various road tests and idling time.

I'll be without my truck for at least a few weeks :thumbdwn: I guess this is the down side of ordering parts online...

Thanks for replying,

ERUSH
 






I don't want to distract you from the path you chose but since you mentioned "steering performance" on page 1, which I'm assuming means increasing system pressure for off roading, there is another way to bump up the pressure on a stock/OEM pump. The method pretty much boils down to shimming the pump's flow piston so that it goes into "bypass" mode at a higher pressure.

Linky: http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html
 






I'll be without my truck for at least a few weeks :thumbdwn: I guess this is the down side of ordering parts online...

Thanks for replying,

ERUSH

...One of the reason's I bought mine was, I could buy it locally and replace it at anytime almost anywhere...At the time, Autozone of all places carried them...AZ and AGR have since parted ways and ordering them online or over the phone thru AGR or Summit are about the only options..

...This is the main reason I won't be buying another one from them...I feel your pain of having a truck down when it is not your fault and you were only trying to make an improvement over a failing part, and the improvement item fails..:(
 






[...]since you mentioned "steering performance" on page 1, which I'm assuming means increasing system pressure for off roading[...]

I don't want to use my truck for off roading.

Since I've been restoring my 1965 Mercedes, I've been spoiled by its effortless, silent, butter-smooth steering. Being frustrated with my OEM power steering whine, and terribly weak steering at low speed, even with my stock tires/rims, I wanted to increase the steering system's performance and decrease the noise.

I had two options, fabricate a bracket and fit a Saginaw TC or P pump, or purchase a bolt-on AGR pump. After reading testimony from Tbars4 and many others around this forum, I decided to save the fabrication headache and get the AGR. Looks like I couldn't avoid the headache...

What do you guys think of that fluid? My guess is the pump overheated because of the aerated fluid, and overheated the fluid as well. Must have gotten VERY hot because synthetic P/S fluid can tolerate some serious heat. I remember feeling the lines after my test drives, and they were too hot to touch.
 






Technically speaking you will probably never get as smooth and effortless operation of a 4wd or front-wd system as any rear wheel drive car. Even if the rack and pump are built up you are still moving a lot more parts and weight so though the wheel may turn easy, you'll still feel the movement through the rest of the vehicle.

I recall very well the "1-finger steering" on my dad's cars. Used to have commercials touting it back before front wheel drive cars became the norm. Made parallel parking a lot easier than the cranking we have to do today.
 






In my opinion, steering performance for general day-to-day driving isn't really about the pump since all that does is help you turn the tires at really low speeds. Until a few months ago, I had a Honda Civic without power steering and that was probably the best steering car I've ever driven (I'd say better than the BMWs I've driven since they had power steering), that is, until it was time to park in the some of the tighest parking spots in Washington DC.
 






It's amazing how the entire power steering system affects steering performance, not just the pump.

My arms have always gotten tired when trying to parallel park my '97, especially when I'm late for work :thumbdwn: After trying out my AGR pump, even with aerated fluid, I am satisfied with its low-speed steering performance. Soooo much easier than the worn out junk I had earlier.

Hopefully, the next pump won't aerate the fluid... it has an incredibly high flow rate, so I hope any small air in the system purges without whipping the fluid into a chocolate milk.
 






...As for the fluid..:scratch:...I am not sold on the Royal Purple being any better in the steering pump but I put it in to make sure it was covered by warranty...

...I have a problem with my AGR pump and it has low miles, no air in the system, and the fluid looks fine..I've also marked my pulley and have been watching it..

...I feel the same way completely as for the performance and the ease of operation both on and off road with my 35"s till a few months ago..

...I can drive down a straight road for say 10 miles, get off the road and as I'm slowing down the pump starts whirring...It stops after a couple or 3 turns but it is so intermittent it's driving me bonkers...:confused:..I'm not running a steering cooler and if I added one and the problem persisted I would be miffed...:rant:

...AGR was sold by the original owner a few years back and he since has started another company called PSC..I believe this is his site..
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/

...Since I did my install I have seen a few not so good post on the net about AGR but none were that bad...It seems the product is sometimes a problem, customer service always seems to be helpful to a point, but as I mentioned they can now only be bought at a couple places online..


...I believe your story is the worst I've heard so far and I am now more concerned with their quality control if it so happened the way you described it..:(
 






...As for the fluid..:scratch:...I am not sold on the Royal Purple being any better in the steering pump but I put it in to make sure it was covered by warranty...

When I talked to their technician, he said Amsoil is a-ok to use in the pump; he said that he's heard nothing but good things about Amsoil P/S fluid, but they prefer Royal Purple or Redline, as their instructions say. I guess it's like the "which motor oil do you prefer?" argument, we all have our preferences...

...Since I did my install I have seen a few not so good post on the net about AGR but none were that bad...It seems the product is sometimes a problem, customer service always seems to be helpful to a point, but as I mentioned they can now only be bought at a couple places online..


...I believe your story is the worst I've heard so far and I am now more concerned with their quality control if it so happened the way you described it..

I hope I just received a dud pump... I certainly don't want to worry down the road if this pump will blow up or moan :mad: I wonder if you have a very small air leak and the system purges faster than it ingests, except at high speed (pump is turning faster). If you have to turn your tires a few times to make it go away, you have to have air in the system...

I also hope this isn't a known issue with AGR pumps; I've only seen a similar case on the Ranger Station's forum. Let's hope the next pump works as designed.
 



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..I have searched for the air and it's no fun jumping out of the truck on the side of the road, raising a lifted X hood, climbing up on a 35" tire (with stubby legs :p: ) and not finding any air in the reservoir..

...Anything is possible and I'm even trying to remember if this started back when I changed my belt tensioner, idler pulley, and belt..That's what got me thinking it was the steering pulley possibly slipping..

...I do have a theory as it might be the fluid heating up and a steering cooler may help but again, Royal Purple and synthetics are suppose to be the bomb when it comes to a heating problem of sorts but the fluid still looks good..:dunno:
 






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