...and the troubles continue (with video)

[Sandstone VR-4]

Some of you may have seen my other thread (http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392503), where I discussed loss of power, funky throttle response, etc...

Well, last night, I cleaned the MAF sensor, (carefully, with rubbing alcohol and cotton swab), and checked to make sure the throttle plate was moving like it's supposed to when the pedal is depressed. Afterwards, I pulled the throttle body off and gave it a once over. I couldn't pull the TPS off (stripped the damn screws), but not sure pulling it from the throttle body would have told me much, anyways.

After re-assembly, I hopped in and took it for a test drive. Seemed to do ok, as I had a bit extra power coming from a stop.

That leads me to this morning. The wife and my daughter got in the car and started it up... they made it to the end of the driveway and it died. I have not been able to revive it. The starter would engage, but it didn't seem to have any spark. Now, the starter doesn't even try to spin and there's a series of rapid "clicking" from under hood.

After a few minutes of fiddling with the car, I got this fantastic light show on the instrument cluster:



Any ideas?! I need some serious help, here! Is the brain fried? Engine gone (there were no strange noises to indicate as much)? Something else?

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

So... I pulled the negative cable from the battery and re-set the ECU.

The light show has stopped!

The car now acts "normally" when the key is inserted and turned (starter is turning, etc..).... except for the lack of spark.

There was a bit of needle flutter on the instrument cluster, so I thought it may be a batter issue. However, The symptoms do not change after hooking the cables up to my other car.

Could the TPS cause an issue like this? I noticed the housing was a bit dinged up last night.. most likely from when I pulled the EGR valve off last time.

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

Coil Pack?

Anyone?

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

Seems as thought I have fuel (plugs were soaked) and I also seem to have spark (pulled a plug and grounded to frame... visible spark).

The motor spins freely when the starter kicks in.

It just doesn't seem to want to turn over.

HELP!

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

Anyone.... anyone.... ?

 

[Exproblems]

Seems as thought I have fuel (plugs were soaked) and I also seem to have spark (pulled a plug and grounded to frame... visible spark).

The motor spins freely when the starter kicks in.

It just doesn't seem to want to turn over.

HELP!

I had something similar happen to my Explorer recently, with exception to the flashing dash lights you have and I had one message that read "Test" as I turned off the ignition switch after trying to start my Explorer. The RPM and MPH needles vibrated back and forth rapidly (same as you) for a few seconds while the test message was on the screen. The first mechanic I took it to, said the message TEST needle fluttering happened because my battery was low on charge from trying to start the engine several times. I guess it was a "system test". The engine would not fire up(was working fine the day before) and I could smell gas fumes in the air, so I know the fuel pump was sending fuel to the motor or working. I thought I heard a brief, sudden noise come from the engine area as I tried to start the engine for the first time. Sounded like something "popped" or blew out, but can't be certain because it happened so fast. Just a strange noise I heard. Perfect example of why I hate that F-ing start up chime sounding off every time you start the vehicle.! My mechanic also said the cylinders were full of gas and my plugs were coated in gas as well. He said I was getting plenty of good spark. His final diagnosis after doing a compression test was that my right bank or rear timing chain "jumped time" and lost compression (zero reading) on all 3 right bank cylinders. The left side cylinders read 140. After having my vehicle for a week, he then referred me to take my Explorer to a Ford dealership where it has sat for the last week and hasn't been looked at yet by Ford's mechanics.
I called the dealership yesterday for an update, spoke to the service manager, he said they were busy getting other appointments done and he was short handed one or two mechanics. I went over some info with him regarding my vehicle and he said he didn't think my problem was the rear timing chain as the other mechanic had stated as my problem. He said you wouldn't lose compression on all 3 cylinders on the same side of the engine due to a timing chain issue. I asked him what he thought would cause this and he said, "I'm not sure, till we do some testing on it". It didn't sound like he was confident in the other mechanics diagnosis. So here I sit, 2 weeks into this without any definite answer as to what my problem is and no specific date in sight when they will start working on it. It's starting to wear on me.
Personally, I think something electrical fried from the startup sound I heard that is keeping the engine from firing up. Dash icons/message screen all still light up when the ignition is energized. The truck was running fine before this and no warning signs from any of the dash sensors.
BTW, you shouldn't clean the MAF sensor or Throttle Body with any other cleaner than the type specifically made for each component. The spray can cleaners are even named after these components and cost around $7-$9 in parts stores. Nor should you rub a Q-tip against the MAF sensor wires. They are delicate wires and could break. About $150 or so for a new MAF sensor. Disconnecting the negative battery terminal before the cleaning helps the PCU re-learn and reset/adjust the system based off of the new information it will get from these freshly cleaned parts.

 

[2000StreetRod]

ignorant service manager

. . . My mechanic also said the cylinders were full of gas and my plugs were coated in gas as well. He said I was getting plenty of good spark. His final diagnosis after doing a compression test was that my right bank or rear timing chain "jumped time" and lost compression (zero reading) on all 3 right bank cylinders. The left side cylinders read 140. . . I called the dealership yesterday for an update, spoke to the service manager, he said they were busy getting other appointments done and he was short handed one or two mechanics. I went over some info with him regarding my vehicle and he said he didn't think my problem was the rear timing chain as the other mechanic had stated as my problem. He said you wouldn't lose compression on all 3 cylinders on the same side of the engine due to a timing chain issue. . .

Your mechanic is correct and your service manager doesn't know what he's talking about. Loss of compression for all cylinders on one bank are the exact symptoms of a failed camshaft timing chain.

Sandstone VR-4, there is no way that a bad TPS could prevent the starter motor from cranking. The strange instrument panel behavior is probably due to low battery voltage. I suggest charging the battery before any more testing.

 

[Exproblems]

Your mechanic is correct and your service manager doesn't know what he's talking about. Loss of compression for all cylinders on one bank are the exact symptoms of a failed camshaft timing chain.

.

I have no idea what is going on then unless the dealership is trying to soak me for unnecessary diagnosis testing when I gave them my mechanics diagnosis of the problem to start with and rule out. The service manager I spoke with the other day, I do not personally know him. He was actually filling in for the service manager I dropped my vehicle off with last week. This is the first time I have ever been to a manufacturer dealership for something "major" like this. Generally, I stay away from them and only went there because my mechanic said he couldn't do the timing chain job because of lack of equipment at his shop. It was his recommendation to bring it to a Ford dealership since it's one of their vehicle's and they should be able to handle this type of repair. My question is, is it common for a timing chain to fail during startup? My problem occurred during startup. Thanks again 2000Streetrod for the info!
BTW, I don't doubt you at all on this, but the other day when I did an online search of my problem according to my mechanics "zero compression on all 3 right bank cylinders", nearly all of the web links I looked at that came up for that problem mentioned a "head gasket" problem causing loss of compression. Unless I'm wrong, I can't see a head gasket blowing out on startup.

Another question if I may? Could a bad "ignition module" still allow you to see good spark at the plug wires and turn the motor over via the starter, but not allow the engine to fire up? Just trying to rule this device out of the equation. Thanks again!

 

[Exproblems]

Seems as thought I have fuel (plugs were soaked) and I also seem to have spark (pulled a plug and grounded to frame... visible spark).

The motor spins freely when the starter kicks in.

It just doesn't seem to want to turn over.

HELP!

I just found this link below from AA1cars, might give you some insight as to what your problem is and mine.


http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1296.htm

 

[2000StreetRod]

MAF sensor cleaner

. . . Well, last night, I cleaned the MAF sensor, (carefully, with rubbing alcohol and cotton swab) . . .

As Exproblems posted the MAF sensor is very delicate and should never be physically touched when being cleaned. Also, rubbing alcohol should not be used to clean the sensor. Only an aerosol designed to clean electronic components should be used. If the sensor was broken when you cleaned it there should be a DTC generated indicating that the MAF sensor ouput voltage is out of limits. However, you may have contaminated the sensor so that the voltage output is incorrect. I suggest that you spray the MAF sensor with aerosol MAF sensor cleaner available at most auto parts stores and let it air dry. Follow the manufacturer's directions for use printed on the container.

Most of the instruments in the instrument cluster are driven by outputs from the PCM. When the battery voltage drops low enough that the PCM can no longer function erratic values may be displayed on the cluster. Learned short and long term fuel trims are stored in a special section of PCM memory (keep alive memory) that is powered by the battery even when the ignition key is off. If the battery is disconnected long enough the data in the keep alive memory is lost and the fuel trims revert to factory values until they can be relearned. I suggest that you measure your battery voltage with the engine off after charging it and again when it's running to evaulate your electrical system.

 

[2000StreetRod]

timing chain failure

. . . My question is, is it common for a timing chain to fail during startup? My problem occurred during startup. . .

The camshaft timing chain tensioner is a hydraulic piston in a cylinder with a mechanical spring. Often the spring is not strong enough to keep the chain taught and prevent the chain from slipping when there is no oil pressure as at engine start. In my opinion the chain is most apt to slip when the starter is cranking the engine (slow rotation speed and low oil pressure) or when the engine is rapidly decelerating. The plastic cassette guides can break at any time due to fatigue. Often a large piece will jam between the chain and the head causing the chain to slip.

BTW, I don't doubt you at all on this, but the other day when I did an online search of my problem according to my mechanics "zero compression on all 3 right bank cylinders", nearly all of the web links I looked at that came up for that problem mentioned a "head gasket" problem causing loss of compression. Unless I'm wrong, I can't see a head gasket blowing out on startup.

Blown head gaskets are more common with the OHV than the SOHC V6. A blown head gasket usually won't cause all three cylinders to lose compression.

Another question if I may? Could a bad "ignition module" still allow you to see good spark at the plug wires and turn the motor over via the starter, but not allow the engine to fire up? Just trying to rule this device out of the equation. Thanks again!

Only the 1st generation Explorers have an ignition module. The ignition for 2nd generation and later models is controlled by the PCM. The coilpack has three sections or transformers. One could be bad and the other two still good. The system is a waste spark system with pairs of plugs firing at the same time. A plug on the compression stroke fires with a plug on the exhaust stroke.

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

...so had the Exploder towed to the Ford dealer this morning and they just called.

Results of the relative compression test is that there is no compression. Tech thinks that the timing chain is toast. After 173,000 miles, I'm not entirely shocked.

Now... time to edcuate myself on swapping another 4.0L into her!

 

[Exproblems]

In my opinion the chain is most apt to slip when the starter is cranking the engine (slow rotation speed and low oil pressure) or when the engine is rapidly decelerating. The plastic cassette guides can break at any time due to fatigue. Often a large piece will jam between the chain and the head causing the chain to slip.

Blown head gaskets are more common with the OHV than the SOHC V6. A blown head gasket usually won't cause all three cylinders to lose compression.

Only the 1st generation Explorers have an ignition module. The ignition for 2nd generation and later models is controlled by the PCM. ]

Thanks 2000Streetrod for this info. I can pretty much rule out a blown head gasket(engine never overheated in my possession) and there isn't an ignition module to go bad in my Explorer to begin with. Only thing left would likely be the timing chain.

 

[Exproblems]

...so had the Exploder towed to the Ford dealer this morning and they just called.

Results of the relative compression test is that there is no compression. Tech thinks that the timing chain is toast. After 173,000 miles, I'm not entirely shocked.

Now... time to edcuate myself on swapping another 4.0L into her!

Seems like you and I are in the same boat. Did they say what side (left or right) of the engine lost compression? Left side means front timing chain and can be repaired with the engine in place and right side means rear timing chain and engine must be removed or replaced to repair. Good luck with it!

 

[2000StreetRod]

bad news

...so had the Exploder towed to the Ford dealer this morning and they just called.

Results of the relative compression test is that there is no compression. Tech thinks that the timing chain is toast. After 173,000 miles, I'm not entirely shocked.

Now... time to edcuate myself on swapping another 4.0L into her!

Sorry about the bad news. Your dealer will probably suggest replacing the engine. Your cost may exceed $3,000 unless you have some type of warranty. Other options are to find an independent mechanic (make sure he's experienced) or to swap the engine yourself if you have the time, space, tools, inclination and can do without the vehicle for a while. Did you have any timing chain rattle to warn you of impending failure?

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

Sorry about the bad news. Your dealer will probably suggest replacing the engine. Your cost may exceed $3,000 unless you have some type of warranty. Other options are to find an independent mechanic (make sure he's experienced) or to swap the engine yourself if you have the time, space, tools, inclination and can do without the vehicle for a while. Did you have any timing chain rattle to warn you of impending failure?

Yeah... he quoted $5300 for a new Ford Shortblock + install! He said that he could get a 100k mile engine for an Explorer from a salvage yard for $2400.

I've been able to locate Mustang 4.0l motors with 50k-60k on them for around $1000, but when I mentioned that I was thinking of going that direction, he told me "can't be done.. they have different heads".

I feel as though I have the inclination to be able to swap the engine myself, but my biggest question mark is time. How much time can I expect it to take me to pull the old engine, swap over the Explorer specific parts, and re-install the new(er) motor? Something I could get done over the course of a weekend once I get the donor motor? Any special tools that could be recommended to make my life easier during the transplant, etc.. ?

 

[Sandstone VR-4]

Seems like you and I are in the same boat. Did they say what side (left or right) of the engine lost compression? Left side means front timing chain and can be repaired with the engine in place and right side means rear timing chain and engine must be removed or replaced to repair. Good luck with it!

He didn't specify when I asked. Actually said that they did a "relative" compression test, which revealed no compression.

 

[2000StreetRod]

can't be done?

My suggestion is to have your vehicle towed to an independent shop experienced with Ford Explorers. The cost should be significantly less.

There are threads on this forum that document what changes are required to use a 2005 or later Mustang SOHC V6. You would need a crane to pull the old and install the replacement engine. No special tools are required if you don't need to time the camshafts or remove the valve springs (which you shouldn't for an engine in good condition). If you purchase a salvage engine make sure it has not been sitting for years since it last ran. The fuel injectors will gum up and not work. Since you don't have that much experience with the particular engine I would plan for at least two full weekends.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Engine swap 98 sohc with 05 Mustang motor

Post #144 of the thread link below gives a summary of the Mustang to Explorer engine swap:

Engine swap 98 sohc with 05 Mustang motor

Do you have 4WD or 2WD? If you have 4WD your stock engine has a balance shaft and very few of the Mustang engines have one. Many forum members have replaced their balance shaft engine with one without a balance shaft with no noticeable difference. If may be noticeable (additional vibration) during heavy engine load, low range, off road driving.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a 3rd generation step-by-step engine removal procedure posted on the forum. It shouldn't be too much different than my 2nd generation procedure: 1 SOHC V6 Engine Removal Procedure

 

[Joscibo]

Yeah... he quoted $5300 for a new Ford Shortblock + install! He said that he could get a 100k mile engine for an Explorer from a salvage yard for $2400.

I've been able to locate Mustang 4.0l motors with 50k-60k on them for around $1000, but when I mentioned that I was thinking of going that direction, he told me "can't be done.. they have different heads".

I feel as though I have the inclination to be able to swap the engine myself, but my biggest question mark is time. How much time can I expect it to take me to pull the old engine, swap over the Explorer specific parts, and re-install the new(er) motor? Something I could get done over the course of a weekend once I get the donor motor? Any special tools that could be recommended to make my life easier during the transplant, etc.. ?

I did the swap in 3 long nights 1 of them an all day with plenty of metric tools, an engine hoist, jack and jack stands, plastic bags to put labeled bolts in, impact with long extensions for bellhousing bolts 6 of them I believe. Take the plenum off to get in and out. It's not hard if you have someone to help it speeds things up and Torque specs are needed as well for manifolds and plenum. I have $3200 into buying my ex with bad engine and swapping the engines, putting new wheel bearings in it, rear end seals and rear struts. The forum has helped me a ton! We are here go for the swap!!