Are "Phantoms" Michelins?

[Marty Kaplan]

My first posting. The bright side of this tire recall mess is that I found this website. I've got two questions. Hope they aren't repeats. Went to my local Firestone dealer today to replace my daughter's Firestone ATX P235/75R15s, and they had just gotten a truckload of "Phantom A/T"s which they tell me are Michelin LTX A/Ts.

Does anyone know if they are actually Michelins (I also sent this question to Michelin, but who knows what they'll tell me)?

My other question. I've got the not-yet recalled Wilderness AT P255/70R16s, and Michelin apparently doesn't make the LTX A/T in my size, which seems to be the best choice for my kind of driving (95% highway, 5% mild off-road). The BFG A-T T/A is more tire than I need, but the Michelin LTX M/S doesn't seem like enough. Other possibilities are the Pirelli Scorpion A/T and Dunlop Radial Rover A/T. Any suggestions??

 

[FlyAU]

Marty: First off, welcome to the board! Hope you'll find it useful.

I've never heard of "Phantoms." I'm not inclined to believe the Firestone guy at the moment, either...

Lucky for you, there isn't a run on the 16" tires yet. I'm running the LTX M/S on my '93 EB 4x4...great tires. I've taken them on some loose stuff (mild dirt/scrabble mix) and they handled great. Also great in rain! Previously, I had the Dunlop Radial Rover A/Ts and they took everything I dished out. Many board members are going to suggest--no, insist --you go with the BFGs, but if you're like me, they're prolly more tire than you need.

Whew, I'll shut up now...

[Edited by FlyAU on 09-16-2000 at 09:36 PM]

 

[KodeBlu]

Hey Marty, Welcome. I don't think those tires are Michelins as quoted by your salesperson. I was on the Discount Tire site and I ran across something called the Fisk Phantom A/T. Maybe that's the tire he was trying to sale you. Check out the link below.

http://www.discounttire.com/mega-bi...PBVP3&item.value=19733&price.PRODRETAIL=59.00

 

[Marty Kaplan]

Got My Answer

So I got an answer today from a very helpful Michelin customer service guy (800.847-3435). In brief, the answer's yes. The Fisk Phantom A/Ts (P235/75R15) are an older version of the BFGoodrich Radial All-Terrain T/As, available (as KodeBlu noted in his post) from Discount Tire for $59. Not a bad deal, I'd say. And as most of you probably know, BFG is part of Michelin, although this customer service guy told me they still keep separate factories.

 

[Peter Weber]

Marty,
I replaced my Wilderness AT P255/70R16's with the Pirelli Scorpion AT's. The tread looks more aggressive than the Wilderness AT's. So far I like the feel of them. Haven't taken them off road nor has it rained in my part of the country, so the jury is still out.

 

[bluescat]

Consumer Reports...BFG's

I know you're going to love this board. You can answer almost any question you might have with the great search engine or just follow some of these threads. I have F-stones 255/70R-16's also and wanted you to know that Consumer Reports rates the tires last Nov and this past August. The results were the same for first place, 2 & 3 are new models on the chart but couldn't take the snow like the BFG's.

1. BF Goodrich Radial Long Trail T/A
2. Bridgestone Dueler H/L
3. Yokohama Geolander H/T
4. Michelin LTX M/S
5. Dunlop Radial Rover A/T
6. Cooper Discoverer Radial STE
7. Goodyear Wrangler RF-A

Since the 16's are with the premium sport group, I still haven't heard back from Ford if the computer is programmed any differently for the oversized wheel/tire combo. I am looking to reduce my aspect ratio from 70 to 65 since a current CBS news report said the 2 doors roll over a lot more frequently than 4 doors and just recently. Funny thing is, no one's made the connection between the introduction of the 16" wheels on the Explorers into this equation. For interstate travel when trailering, the most important thing is the ability of the vehicle to track to another lane quickly, not have a high stance with good looking tires that have features you'll never use. Problem is, when you go the other direction with lower height tires, your tires are too sporty; they can cut in too quick actually creating a problem instead of saving you. Finally, The LT prefix series of tires frequently have a higher load rating and if your tow, these are the better choice IMHO.

 

[Marty Kaplan]

2 Door, 16" Tires

Bluescat,

Now you really got me thinking. When I talked with the Michelin guy today, he said Ford's emphatic about not putting all-season tires on these cars...too much grip, he implied, making rollovers more likely. And my guess is that the 4WD 2 door's shorter wheel base and taller tire adds to the tipsy formula.

So I do some towing too, but I bet the LT (versus P metric) tires would make for a bouncier, jittier ride (which I like, but I'm always alerting my full-busomed wife to take hold of herself when we go over bumps).

But seriously, I think you raise a really good issue here, and wonder what others think about this.

 

[jimslat]

Marty,

Welcome to the board! I replaced the Wilderness AT tires on my 2001 Sport with Pirelli Scorpion AT tires. I was amazed by the improvement. You have to be wreckless to get these tires to hydroplane, unlike the Wilderness AT. Since installing these tires, I notice the ABS rarely comes on while driving in the rain. The ABS was constantly activating with the Firestone tires.

Try them, you will not go wrong. You will also be very impressed with their highway performance!

 

[Blaine Cooper]

I almost went with the Scorpions myself. I went with the BFG A/T because...I've heard more good things about the BFGs and when I worked for Sears we sold a lot of Pirelli tires, most of them were Armstrong made, and also an AT tire called the Roadhandler Treadloc was made by Armstrong, they were all awful tires. The Scorpions looked a lot like the old Armstrong Norseman tires I used to have back in the mid 80's and they were awful as well. They may be great tires now, but my mind was clouded from those experiences.

 

[JWood]

Bridgestone Dueler H/L

Finally got the 5 ATXs replaced with the Bridgestone Dueler H/L. Seems like a really good tire so far (60,000 mile warranty); definately a much better ride and handling. Also, added 4 Gabriel VST shocks as well, less roll and nose dive when turning and stopping. Also, check the http://www.tirerack.comcustomer survey about tires. It's pretty informative!

 

[jimslat]

Blaine Cooper,

Those tires were indeed a piece of junk. However, the Scorpions are another animal! I had the others you referred to. The big difference is the scorpions have a superb response and excellent grip on dry and wet roads and do real well off road. I guess the major difference is in the carcass and tread compounds.

 

[donkey boy]

Re: 2 Door, 16

Originally posted by Marty Kaplan
When I talked with the Michelin guy today, he said Ford's emphatic about not putting all-season tires on these cars...too much grip, he implied, making rollovers more likely.

All season tire too much grip for the Explorer? Joke or BS? This guy can't be serious, or he has no clue!

 

[JWood]

All season for Explorer

Just check the Ford Website for information about approved tires for Explorers. There is a list detailing all tires Ford recommends, including several All Season tires like Bridgestone Dueler H/L, Michelin LTX M/S, and Uniroyal Laredo All Season.

 

[JWood]

Ford's Recommened Tire List

Here is the link to the Ford list ...just look for the list of Recommended Replacement Tires

http://www.ford.com/default.asp?pageid=106&storyid=935

 

[Marty Kaplan]

Re:Ford's Recommended Replacement Tire List

JWood,

So I went to that site then talked with the Ford guys...the list is just for 15" tires. They referred me to my local Ford dealer. So I consulted my owner's guide, and there's that same statement that the Michelin guy kept referring to; "Make sure that all replacement tires are of the same size, type, load-carrying capacity and tread design, e.g. 'All Terrain', etc. as originally offered by Ford. Failure to follow these precautions may adversely affect the handling of the vehicle and make it easier to lose control and roll over."

Everyone's covering their you-know-whats, and I'm not sure if there's something here worth paying attention to, or if I should just go out and get whatever tire I want. But mostly I'm curious if there's something particularly unique or unstable about the 2 door with 16" tires.

Phew...I've said enough.

 

[bluescat]

Compromise

Marty;
One approach to think about is lowering the unit with 265 or 255/65-16's. If you go to tirerack and search out these sizes you will see a number of AT tires that will work just fine. The logic here of course is that the Sport comes stock with 15" tires that have a smaller sidewall height than the 16's. So you should be able to reduce the aspect ratio on the 16's to at least that 15" sidewall spec safely. If you go to the Miata net tire calculator and punch in some different numbers (compared to 255/70-16), you'll see what I mean:

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Specification Sidewall Radius Diameter Circumference Revs/Mile Difference
255/70-16 7.0in 15.0in 30.1in 94.4in 671 0.0%
265/65-16 6.8in 14.8in 29.6in 92.9in 682 -1.6%
255/65-16 6.5in 14.5in 29.1in 91.3in 694 -3.3%
235/75-15 6.9in 14.4in 28.9in 90.7in 698 -3.9%

As you can see, the 255 and 265/65-16 approach the same size as the 15 in terms of reduced sidewall height & radius.

 

[JWood]

Ford & Firestone

Marty -

Liability is the key issue here. I don't think you will see either Ford or Firestone deviate from the respective positions, although some conflicting data does exist as you noted in the Ford Manual. If your concern is about the 15" tires for your daughter's vehicle you are stuck with the ones selected for "free" replacement.

If it's the 16" tires you are concerned about I would still go raise a stink with Firestone and see if they will cave in and offer replacements at little or no charge, citing your total lack of confidence in that tire.

Locally, here in Houston, when the local CBS affilliate documented the ATX issue around March 2000, Firestone began replacements for those that complained. The same might happen with your 16" tires...

 

[Marty Kaplan]

Great Advice

I've learned more in the past couple of days about my Explorer than in the two years I've owned it. Thanks for hanging in there with me and for the great advice. So what about this Houston CBS affiliate expose, anyway? What was the essence of the story?

 

[JWood]

Marty - CBS Report

The Houston CBS TV Station (KHOU) detailed Explorers with ATX's experiencing blow outs, wrecks, and damage to their vehicles. This was first highlighted locally, months earlier, when a very well respected local TV station (ABC-KTRK) reporter was killed on Interstate 45, north of Houston, when the TV station's Explorer rolled over. And yes, you guessed it, it was a blow out of a Firestone ATX!!

The national news media picked up on it and acknowledged the CBS station's investigative report really got this recall moving forward, at last.