Auto-hub 4x4 problem

[mmcgovern919]

Auto hub problem

Ok, kinda going back to the original reason for the post.
I had a problem with my auto-hubs and tried taking them apart last week and fixing it. I cleaned out some of the gunk, but didn't know I could take the gears out of the hub. I put them back together and went for a test drive. Now, instead of hitting the button, getting the clunk and the light (but no 4x4).....I got a light and a click (still no 4x4). (I thought: Crap...hubs and T-case now!)
I posted on here (see above) and found out how to take the hubs apart. I have done that and am cleaning them as we speak. My question is this: What internal part of the hub gets warn down? I have all the gears apart on my garage floor, but it all looks good to me (fingers crossed). I can't tell what makes the gears move to engage the hub so I can't tell where the spacer would go (if I needed one) Any ideas?
Also, know where I would get a smaller snap ring (that goes inside the hub when it's all together) to replace the one that broke on me?
Well, back to cleaning!

Matt McGovern

 

[slim]

The spacer will go behind the part that slides on the gear, the gear inside the hub. Further, with the gear removed look inside the hub. You will see a plastic surface, this is the worn surface and where the spacer goes. Now, as you will see there is not much to this spacer. We used 1/16" thick stainless steel sheet metal. Then cut and ground it to the proper inside and outside diameter.

slim

 

[mmcgovern919]

Ok, I think I understand what you're describing, but since I don't have a good (or bad) one to compare it to, I can't tell if it's worn or not.
I will describe mine and hopefully someone can tell me if it's normal or worn. When I take the gears out of the hub I see some spindle/spoke things (can't tell if they are metal or plastic due to the gunk/dirt) They come to a point where a (looks to be plastic) cap sits about 1-2 inches above the bottom of the hubis. This is where my gears sit and are connected to this plastic cap with the snap ring. (which I found and bought, by the way) If it's worn, I can't tell.
Does that tell anyone anything?
Slim, are you the one that made the spacer? If so, and it sounds to you like I have some wear, would you (or was it your brother?) be willing to make me one?
Thanks in advance for your help - Matt

 

[slim]

Matt, it is my brother-in law who made the spacer. However, I got a die grinder for Christmas and I am very confident that I can make them . Also, I belive anyone who can use a compass and a grinder can make this spacer.

Moving on, the plastic ring you mentioned is worn. As you look at the plastic inside the hub you are looking at the size of your spacer, it is only about 1/4" wide. Therefore when your spacer is in place it will only cover that plastic surface.

slim

 

[mmcgovern919]

Originally posted by slim
Matt, it is my brother-in law who made the spacer. However, I got a die grinder for Christmas and I am very confident that I can make them . Also, I belive anyone who can use a compass and a grinder can make this spacer.

Sorry to be so slow, but I want to make sure we're describing the same thing. The spacer makes the inner gear sit higher in the hub because as the plastic wears down, the inner gears slip lower and lower into the hub? Which, therefore, doesn't engage the hub because the front axle doesn't travel far enough to completely reach those inner gears? I think I have it.
Today, since the hubs were apart and clean, I took them to a mechanic friend of mine and had him look at them. He suggested that I put them back in now that they're clean and see if that solves the problem.
I put them back in and noticed that on one wheel, the cams on the axle spindle (that connect to the teeth of the hub) weren't lined up right. There was room for the teeth to move, but they would not engage the cam in the right spot. I took the snap-ring and axle spacer off the axle spindle and cleaned the cams off (very dirty and grimy) I rotated the cam so the teeth from the hub would line up correctly (could this have been my problem all along???) and put the hubs back on, replaced the wheel and dropped the Explorer.
My buddy also suggested that I get under the car and turn the front drivetrain with my hand. If the hubs were working properly, the turning drivetrain would make the hubs engage. If it didn't I wasn't out of the woods yet. (He even said if I turned it the opposite way the hubs would disengage) I gave it a shot and after a couple of revolutions the hubs engaged!! I even rotated the front tires a couple of times (not easy).
I went out for a test drive (obviously, the snow I needed the 4x4 in the first place has since melted so I will have to do it on asphalt). I pushed the button and got the dashlights, but I just got the click from the left rear cargo box. (transfer case!!) I assume that the hubs are working, but I have to fix the transfer case (better make time for that in the not-too-distant future) for the 4x4 to be back to normal. Thinking I'd won the battle, but not the war, I pulled into a neighbor's driveway and backed out to unluck the hubs in case they had gotten locked during the trip. I pulled out (going forward now) and heard a grinding noise coming from the left front hub. It sounded like the gears weren't all the way disengaged and were grinding themselves to disengage. It was very brief and quit completely after a second or two. I don't think it did any damage (although I haven't checked yet). I wonder if that is the hubs finally getting used to doing what they are supposed to be doing or if it means the spacer is really necessary.
Any thoughts?

 

[slim]

mmcgovern919

Do not lock you hubs on pavement, you will break something real quick. However, it sounds like you know what you are talking about. Next, if your hub is not unlocking then it is still sticking. Is the bearing moving freely, I know where you can get one for two dollars. Maybe there is still some dirt inside, did you oil them after they where cleaned? Finally, if the hubs are locking you should not need a spacer.

slim

 

[Beertime9]

mmcgovern919,
I Don't think your hubs are working right, the spacer needs to push the cam farther in, the way you check this is take off your hub and line up the cam like it would be if it was engaged, them try to push the hub on. With the hub lined up it should be about 1/2" away from seating on the spindle. Now with the hub bolted on, the hub should be locked as long as you do not turn the hub and try to turn the axle you can see if it engaged. When you had the hub apart you can see how far the cam has to travel to engage. If you hold the hub hup to the axle cam like if would be engaged you would see if it traveling enough.

BTW Slim where are my shims you promised????

Don

 

[slim]

Don, great to hear from you. About your spacer, I have asked Greg about them at least 20 times. However, he always seems to be busy. Also, I feel let down by Greg, if it were not for me and you his hubs would still not be working. However, when it was Greg who needed spacers, Greg had them done the next day. I am leaving work in a few minutes, I will call Greg as soon as I walk in the door. Finally, it was Greg who promised to make spacers for the man responsible for the information which let to his hubs being fixed. Don, I know it has been to long, you will have them soon. Hey, maybe I should give you Greg's Phone #, then you could thank him for nothing.

slim

 

[mmcgovern919]

I have tried engaging the hubs a couple of times by turning the front drivetrain just with the Explorer in the garage. Both hubs engage within 1-2 revolutions so I think I have the hubs taken care of. We have taken the Explorer out for errands and things and haven't had a repeat of the grinding. BTW, I did lube the hubs with a very small amount of lubricant. (I went out and got some stainless steel washers to use as spacers just in case the plastic gets worn enough to not let them engage)
Since I've been getting the clicks when I try the 4x4 I decided to check the transfer case. (I already checked the test procedure for the board that's in the jack storage area and it shows an actuator problem.) I checked the thread with Dr. Bob's fixes and tried them last night. The motor arm is completely lined up at 2H so that looks good. The white plastic piece that people are finding ground up in their motor is fully intact for me. I cleaned the contacts which were black, but not disgustingly dirty. I put them back together and still don't have any 4x4. My brother-in-law and I are going to jump back in with his multimeter tonight (didn't have it yesterday) and see if it's an electrical problem. I can't think of too many other things that it could be. We completely had the motor apart and nothing looked obviously wrong. The whole transfer case looks to be in good shape. It hasn't gotten any excessive wear. (I've not been one to go off-roading so the only 4x4 workout the Explorer has gotten is for bad weather. In Indiana, that's ended up being 5-7 times a year and that's about it) I've determined that the problem lies somewhere between the board in the jack storage area and the motor for the transfer case.
Hopefully, I'll have good news to report tomorrow.

 

[Beertime9]

Slim,

It is fine if he does not want to make them, though he must remember this quote " A favor gone unreturned may return unfavorably" I thought it was nice to offer, but heck, at least he got them working and I hope a few more on this site can do the same. BTW, I just made that quote up, but it holds true to what I have learned.

Don

 

[stcroix949]

Well i just installed the shims as described earlier in this thread and lo and behold my hubs work again. It's been a year since they have worked.
Slim you are a genius for figuring it out. That was good analytical thinking on your part and thanks for sharing it.
I made the shims 1 5/8" ID X 2 1/16" OD X 1/16" thick and used aluminum sheet stock and a circle cutter in my drill press to cut them out.
Will probably get some made out of steel in the future but I'll see how the alum. holds up. It's gotta be better than plastic.
Brad

 

[slim]

hello everyone, sorry I have not been around. For some reason I stopped getting e-mail alerts. First of all I want to make something very clear, Don is the genius behind the spacer, please give all the credit to Don.

Don, I got a piece of stainless steel for you spacer, I am making them myself. Therefore, they should be in the mail by Monday. Thank you for being for being so patient.


Matt, glad to hear you hub work. I am curious to know what you find out.

Brad, I am glad you were able to use this information and get your hubs going again.

slim

 

[mmcgovern919]

I haven't had time to work on it again yet....hopefully this week sometime. I need to get in there with the volt meter and see if it's electrical. I may also try the gasket idea between the motor and the transfer case if I can get the motor to work.

 

[slim]

Alright, if all goes as planned I should have ten pair of high quality spacers in the next couple of days. My cousin is a die maker, I know I can count on him doing what he says. Further, I will send Don a pair and keep a set for myself. The remaining spacers I will give away to someone who needs them.

slim

 

[Beertime9]

Hey slim the "Spacer Man,

Glad to see some have caught on to this little design flaw fix. I think this weekend I will take off my hubs and take some pictures and post them. I think if we can show some pictures we can help explain it a little better. For those of you who have 4WD problems they can check the hubs first and compare to the pictures. Slim, thanks for continuing to try to convince this guys, you will be overwhelmed with request for the shims, I hate to say I told you so, but you might be retiring before me, dooohhhh!!!!!, I bet we could make complete rebuild kits, looking for a business partner?

Don


[Edited by beertime9 on 01-22-2001 at 06:45 AM]

 

[slim]

Hey don, I have been wanting to do the same thing regarding the pictures, I started a photopoint page. My wife gave birth January 8, my time is stretched thin for that sort of stuff. Yes, some pictures would make things much simpler. Moving on, this was your idea. Therefore, I feel I should be asking you,"are you looking for a partner".

slim

 

[stcroix949]

Don,
I guess I should say thanks to you for figuring out the shim fix.
Thanks alot.


Slim, if you have any extra steel shims I'd be happy to take them off your hands. I made mine out of aluminum just to see if they would work. Let me know.
Regarding the shims between the bearing nut and cam assembly, my 94 Sport never had them. Both my Haynes and Chiltons repair manuals clearly show them. Anyone know how thick they were from the factory? I looked at new set of auto hubs at the Ford dealer last week and they were not included in the kit. Mechanic said I didn't need them but then again he also said there was no way to fix the old hubs. Shows what he knows. There is about an 1/8 gap between the nut and cam when I pull the cam up tight to the retaining washer.
Brad

 

[slim]

Brad, my 94 has no washer between the spindle nut and the cam assembly. However, my brother in law has a 97 ranger. Further, this ranger has two washers of different thicknesses on the outside of the cam assembly. I do not know the purpose of those washers. About the shim, they are not in my hands yet, but I know they are on the way. I will not promise anything till I am holding them in my hand.

slim

 

[Beertime9]

Hey Shim,

Mine did not have them either, but I think having some there would help the situation. Does it surprise you that they say they can't be fixed, I hate it when someone tells me that, now I have to prove them wrong,

rock on

Don

 

[mmcgovern919]

Sorry for not getting back sooner...been having ISP problems. I finally got back under the explorer to figure out the T-case problem.
I was underneath tinkering with the Ohm-meter and checking to see if the motor would do anything if I disconnected it from the T-case and hit the 4x4 button. (Nothing on both counts)
I got to thinking. This clicking and no t-case problem started just as I was fixing the hub problem. Could they be related? I haven't seen any obvious signs of a problem with my T-case motor. I didn't see any, but does anyone know of any sensors in the hubs? I would assume there isn't one, since it didn't let me know that they weren't working in the first place. I thought if I didn't line up a sensor or blew one or something that might give me the same problem and I could be looking in the wrong place.
Just a thought. I have continuity in the pins in the wiring harness. I suppose I'm going to have to take my T-case motor apart and build it from scratch.