Driver side upper control arm bolts & C/C adj plates

[CDW6212R]

Looking at the picture the bolts appear to be nothing more than a grade 8 bolt fly cut on one side.

I wonder if you can get a grade 10.8 same size and fly cut. Then put more torque on it?

I wish the shiny aftermarket bolts were grade eight bolts, but I doubt it. If 100lbsft was actually put on the bolts, they shouldn't come loose. But it's hard to get that much torque on each one, and I think most alignment shops use no torque wrench on them. I believe all shops use just wrenches for those control arm bolts, and sockets when they have to.

I do most of my tightening without a torque wrench, from experience, but that's for me alone and not customers. I would prefer all shops to use a torque wrench for suspension work. I used my torque wrench for all of the bolts I could when I rebuilt my sister's 2007 Wrangler Unlimited front suspension. Those are notorious for "death wobble", and she had all original parts at 180k miles. Some Firestone place put on a new panhard bar and steering shock, which "solved" the symptom, for a year. When I got involved, I told her it could need everything depending on the damage. I replaced all TRE's and BJ's first(helped it), then the steering shock again, steering box. Still didn't fix it all, so I did all four control arms, plus an aftermarket PHB, and a bigger bolt kit. That solved it, the wear was spread among many parts, from old age and the vibrations causing more.

 

[koda2000]

I wish the shiny aftermarket bolts were grade eight bolts, but I doubt it. If 100lbsft was actually put on the bolts, they shouldn't come loose. But it's hard to get that much torque on each one, and I think most alignment shops use no torque wrench on them. I believe all shops use just wrenches for those control arm bolts, and sockets when they have to.

I do most of my tightening without a torque wrench, from experience, but that's for me alone and not customers. I would prefer all shops to use a torque wrench for suspension work. I used my torque wrench for all of the bolts I could when I rebuilt my sister's 2007 Wrangler Unlimited front suspension. Those are notorious for "death wobble", and she had all original parts at 180k miles. Some Firestone place put on a new panhard bar and steering shock, which "solved" the symptom, for a year. When I got involved, I told her it could need everything depending on the damage. I replaced all TRE's and BJ's first(helped it), then the steering shock again, steering box. Still didn't fix it all, so I did all four control arms, plus an aftermarket PHB, and a bigger bolt kit. That solved it, the wear was spread among many parts, from old age and the vibrations causing more.

I don't use my torque wrenches that often either (55+ years worth of wrenching) but I always use one on my wheel lug nuts and brake parts. The last time I took the Merc into my alignment shop he tighten the hell out of the crappy UCA bolts, but they've still moved a bit. Other than the tire wear I can tell by the steering wheel being a few degrees ****ed to the right. First time I've ever had this happen and the first time I've ever had anyone install an adjustable C/C kit.

As you said, death wobbles are typically caused by everything being worn out and sloppy, not just one thing.

 

[shucker1]

I don't use my torque wrenches that often either (55+ years worth of wrenching) but I always use one on my wheel lug nuts and brake parts.

Understand that.

We use them all the time on the equipment we work on.

Everything is calibrated and certified yearly by the company so I just carry on the practice at home.

 

[swshawaii]

Here's the "special" tool some shops use to adjust camber and caster.

Wonder how accurate a torque wrench would be using this and an extension with the suspension loaded?

Ford Caster/Camber Adjusting Wrench | OTC Tools

 

[shucker1]

Using the formula from the attached .pdf puts you right on target.

 

[swshawaii]

shucker 1, I'm inclined to believe you. So no truth to this?

 

[shucker1]

@swshawaii ,

As long as your angle stays 90 Deg to the torque wrench when using extensions the applied torque will be the basically same.

The picture of the tool mentioned above actually increases the effective length of the torque wrench depending on the angle it it used at.

I would agree with the above video as being correct.

I've always been taught it's critical to use a torque wrench from the intended handle only.

Using leverage beyond the handle changes nothing at the drive end.

Changing the length beyond the drive end reduces effective torque needed at the handle.

 

[shucker1]

My friend @imp would like this thread.

 

[koda2000]

We've had the discussion of "does using an extension change the torque valve?" before, but this was in regard to using socket extensions. It was determined that adding a 18" socket extension to the torque wrench had little-to-no effect on torque applied as long as the torque wench remained at 90 degrees to the fastener being tightened.

This is a different discussion. I've personally never used an extension device/tool like the Ford tool pictured (nor have I ever needed one) but it makes perfect sense that that increasing the length of the torque wrench has a profound effect on the amount of torque applied at the end of the special tool. It's just like adding a length of pipe to a ratchet, or breaker bar, to get a fastener to break loose. It's all about leverage.

 

[swshawaii]

Does an extension alter torque wrench reading?

 

[imp]

My friend @imp would like this thread.

@shucker1
I think we're missing one significant observation here: torque applied to the head of a bolt, let's say, is assumed to be a twisting force applied at the bolt head, not a foot away from it. By adding an extension, we introduce the probability of a moment-arm applying the torque at a slight angle, instead of directly in line with the bolt axis. @koda2000 touched on the very idea: "had little-to-no effect on torque applied as long as the torque wench remained at 90 degrees to the fastener being tightened.

So if ya gotta use an extension, go as short as possible, and support the extension such that it remains IN-LINE with the bolt axis as the torque is applied. The reality is that clearances between the mating parts account for the slightly out-of-line axis I mentioned. If you WELDED the extension to the bolt head, some angular effect would still be present due to the natural bending of the extension off-axis. So, bending is added to the effect from clearances.

The theory of squeezing things together using threaded fasteners is quite involved, and fascinating when one studies them, (or is forced to, thanks to College studies). imp

 

[pepehuertars]

An update from my side:

Got installed the washer kit from moog today. K8674.

After removing the square OE washers, noticed that some ******* drilled or shaved some of the material on the inside of the washer to make it adjust more.

Anyway, after the installation, the alignment guy ran the machine and it was spot on in the first try, no extra camber adjustment needed.

A couple of images, forgot to take a Pic of the new washers lol but the old square ones look like crap.

Problem solved for me.

 

[koda2000]

I received my "previously owned" OE UCA bolts, nuts and C/C plates yesterday. They are in good condition. The adjustable C/C plates that will work with them are scheduled to arrive this afternoon. As soon as my daughter is ready to buy her tires it's off to the tire/alignment shop.

I'm hoping to not need the adjustable C/C plates, but for $10 (Raybestos brand on clearance on RA) I figured it's best to have them in-hand.

 

[koda2000]

Update:
I had the wheel alignment done yesterday. Installed the OE bolts/nuts and beefy CC plates.

Turned out the alignment was out slightly (less than I was expecting). I asked the tech if it was out enough to account for the inside tire wear and he said he didn't think so. I then asked him why then were the front tires wearing on the inside edges more than the outside edges? He said that when aligned to manufacturer's alignment specs the front wheels are at negative chamber. I wonder why then you can't just set the front chamber to something more neutral, but I didn't ask him that.

In fairness I have not been able to rotate the front tires (which were the new, but cheap replacements I was sold by the alignment shop who screwed up the alignment to begin with). So, the new tires will go on the front and the current front tires will be moved to the rear. I will be keeping a close eye on the tire wear on the new better quality front tires, but I'm confident the new alignment will now hold.

I'm getting 2 Hercules Road Tour 455 tires, which come with a free road 2 yr hazard warranty and a 50,000 mile wear warranty.

 

[pepehuertars]

Update:
I had the wheel alignment done yesterday. Installed the OE bolts/nuts and beefy CC plates.

Turned out the alignment was out slightly (less than I was expecting). I asked the tech if it was out enough to account for the inside tire wear and he said he didn't think so. I then asked him why then were the front tires wearing on the inside edges more than the outside edges? He said that when aligned to manufacturer's alignment specs the front wheels are at negative chamber. I wonder why then you can't just set the front chamber to something more neutral, but I didn't ask him that.

In fairness I have not been able to rotate the front tires (which were the new, but cheap replacements I was sold by the alignment shop who screwed up the alignment to begin with). So, the new tires will go on the front and the current front tires will be moved to the rear. I will be keeping a close eye on the tire wear on the new better quality front tires, but I'm confident the new alignment will now hold.

I'm getting 2 Hercules Road Tour 455 tires, which come with a free road 2 yr hazard warranty and a 50,000 mile wear warranty.

Are you going to re-torque the bolts? I'm not sure if I must. My fear is moving the plates unintentionally while torquing and losing the alignment settings.

 

[traveler]

It looks to me like the Moog washer only kit simply replaces the square plate with an egg shaped washer like the one welded to the head of the OEM bolts. This alone would allow more movement for adjusting alignment as both ends of the bolt would move in and out instead of just one end. Or am I missing something here? I still have all four OEM bolts, nuts, and washers and am probably going to get a washer kit to see if that allows more movement. Of course I need to replace the lower control arms first as they are the original parts and the bushings are shot and the ball joint opening has loosened.

 

[CDW6212R]

The best alignment shops will allow the customer to provide driving style input for the technician, so they can cater the alignment to what will work best. I have several times with older Fords asked them to give me a little more negative camber, knowing those cars wore the outer tire edge faster. Those were 85 and 86 Crown Vics, and my first car a 72 gran Torino. The later 95 Crown Vics have better suspensions and don't need much negative camber with hard driving, to get even tire wear.

So if you realize more inside tire wear with proper alignment, than you could request less negative camber. That will move more wear to the outer edges instead of the inside edges of the front tires. Many shops don't want to hear from the owner about what they need for best tire wear. But some shops are more receptive to their customers than typical chains.

 

[pepehuertars]

It looks to me like the Moog washer only kit simply replaces the square plate with an egg shaped washer like the one welded to the head of the OEM bolts. This alone would allow more movement for adjusting alignment as both ends of the bolt would move in and out instead of just one end. Or am I missing something here? I still have all four OEM bolts, nuts, and washers and am probably going to get a washer kit to see if that allows more movement. Of course I need to replace the lower control arms first as they are the original parts and the bushings are shot and the ball joint opening has loosened.

You are correct. The new washers feel like the OE bolts and washers; and it does add extra degrees of adjustment.

 

[koda2000]

Are you going to re-torque the bolts? I'm not sure if I must. My fear is moving the plates unintentionally while torquing and losing the alignment settings.

I asked the tech about using Loctite on the nuts, and he said not to. I think it will be fine. I've never had to go back and re-tighten the nuts on any of my other trucks. I watched the tech tighten them and I don't see them coming loose anymore. I will mark them with a paint marker though.