Driving with a coolant leak from the timing cover

[C420sailor]

Your truck is only worth 2500 Canadian if it’s absolutely cherry. Taking a $1500 truck and putting $1000 of work into it (especially if that’s a mechanic doing the work) does not equal a $2500 truck. Nowhere close.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. I see it in aviation all the time. Guy buys $30k airplane, gets a $70k panel installed, and thinks he has a $100k airplane. Maaaaaybe a $60k airplane. Maybe.

These vehicles are for enthusiasts and garage mechanics. They are not for people who pay to have work done. In that case, they are disposable.

Anyway, you paid the money...maintain it well and drive it until it dies. That’s the only way to recoup your costs. Lesson learned.

 

[98FordLove]

Your truck is only worth 2500 Canadian if it’s absolutely cherry. Taking a $1500 truck and putting $1000 of work into it (especially if that’s a mechanic doing the work) does not equal a $2500 truck. Nowhere close.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. I see it in aviation all the time. Guy buys $30k airplane, gets a $70k panel installed, and thinks he has a $100k airplane. Maaaaaybe a $60k airplane. Maybe.

These vehicles are for enthusiasts and garage mechanics. They are not for people who pay to have work done. In that case, they are disposable.

Anyway, you paid the money...maintain it well and drive it until it dies. That’s the only way to recoup your costs. Lesson learned.

If you do replace the timing cover and the water pump has not been replaced before, prepare yourself as the water pump bolts are prone to breaking off. I did my water pump, timing chain, timing chain gasket, thermostat gasket, thermostat, serpentine belt, and the cooling fan as the fan had several cracks on the plastic housing. I removed all the water pump bolts and of course the last pump bolt broke off inside the housing. I went to the local salvage yard and found a v8 explorer that had just a water pump installed. I removed all of the pump bolts and brought home for any future needs. Once I had the housing removed i then welded on a nut to the end of the broken bolt. I used some kroil oil and let it soak. Then the bolt came right out. My mountaineer is an all wheel drive, v8 302. Typically shops will quote labor for removing the motor from the truck and dropping the oil pan. I was able to replace my timing chain and gasket with the motor still in the truck. I replaced the front timing cover seal, cleaned timing cover surface and surface of the motor. I then used black RTV sealant. Let it get somewhat cured then carefully one movement place the timing cover over the front of the motor. The oil pan gasket generally has to be replaced but the mechanic showed me a trick in using the rtv sealant and placed a thick bead around corners of the oil pan and motor block. This process can cause it to sometimes leak once it is all put back together. As of now no leaks. You can let it go on the leaks but issue will be the underbody/chasis will get premature rust quicker than later.

I replaced the water pump too. The one that was in it was 4 years old and put in from the previous owner so not sure on what quality it was, But since they can go at any moment and the labour is high just to replace it and since it was already out from the mech, I said to just replace it. From what he's told me, the new one went on just fine and the bolts were still good, none broke.

 

[98FordLove]

That is why I have stuck with the 302 Explorers. They have generally cost me about $500-$1000 each year to take care of, after bringing them up to my high standards. That's cheap. Every car has inherent costs, repairs and age weaknesses, prior owner's car etc. Prior owners of old cars will be the biggest cost for you in the short term, keep that in mind when hunting for a used car.

The 302's have all reached the point where age makes the timing cover gasket a big deal, the water pump together with it. If you keep that kind of thing in mind, even now after 20 years they are good values for a reliable vehicle.

The 1st gen Explorers are fairly reliable, but the automatic trans is a weak link, and rough use hurts them quickly. But they still keep going when taken care of well.

Which are the 302 explorers?

 

[98FordLove]

Your truck is only worth 2500 Canadian if it’s absolutely cherry. Taking a $1500 truck and putting $1000 of work into it (especially if that’s a mechanic doing the work) does not equal a $2500 truck. Nowhere close.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. I see it in aviation all the time. Guy buys $30k airplane, gets a $70k panel installed, and thinks he has a $100k airplane. Maaaaaybe a $60k airplane. Maybe.

These vehicles are for enthusiasts and garage mechanics. They are not for people who pay to have work done. In that case, they are disposable.

Anyway, you paid the money...maintain it well and drive it until it dies. That’s the only way to recoup your costs. Lesson learned.

Yes that's right, my truck is only worth $2500cdn when no leaks and running good with no major work needing to be done. I could probably put it up today for 3K cdn obo and if I did get $2500 for it, that would make this whole repair a complete waste of time because I could have just sold it as is for $1200-1300cdn according to my first mech who diagnosed it.

Even with leaks and a lot of work needing to be done to it, a working truck is a working truck and people will bite on it. I really did consider doing this when I got my first diagnosis last week. But also the first mechanic just saw the timing cover gasket leak and oil leaks but didn't spend enough time with it to know that both valve covers had to be done, the thermo housing gasket, belt tensioner, both oil and ATF gaskets, etc have to be done.

I get the truck back tonight, or should.

 

[98FordLove]

Keep in mind, automobiles are a giant MoneyLosing liability, despite car sales lot claims about "investments".
For me, they're simply a tool & it's a matter of minimizing damage, being able to drive does, to my finances.
To avoid a $500/month=$6k/yr new car payment including insurance premiums & tax\tags,,
I'm figuring as much as $2K/yr including insurance & tax\tags,
on each older vehicle that's paid for, to keep it reliable+comfortable, is the much better choice.
Of course, if trying to impress Friends\Family\GolfBuddies\CoWorkers\Women\YourSelf...
with a fancy new vehicle, that's a whole different personal problem.

Yes cars are a giant money losing liability and not something to invest in but just a cost to have each month just to drive and maintain it. I am okay with paying up to $1000cdn a year for an older car in terms of it's maintenance. That is dirt cheap, $83.33cdn a month to have any car is a bargain.

I don't buy cars to impress others, I couldn't give a crap what anyone else thinks of me.

 

[98FordLove]

K-seal is a reputable sealer, normally I and most DIY'ers don't like or trust snake oil remedies and the fact that many sealers can clog up cooling system -- K seal is the exception to those. I would rest in what your mechanic states but for extra peace of mind add a bottle of this to your coolant...can't hurt and IF there is a very minute crack that he couldn't spot this will most likely seal it... especially being it's so small he could not detect / spot it.
I overheated the same engine (in Ranger) , granted not bad, and my heads / gaskets were fine aftewards.

Thanks. I will order a bottle of k-seal. I was going to do this at the start but I know trying to seal leaks is a real hit or miss and after finding out how bad my leaks were and the fact I was leaking from not two but three points, it convinced me to just replace the gaskets.

How bad did you overheat your engine? Did you pull the heads after to inspect for warps and cracks?

 

[98FordLove]

Your truck is only worth 2500 Canadian if it’s absolutely cherry. Taking a $1500 truck and putting $1000 of work into it (especially if that’s a mechanic doing the work) does not equal a $2500 truck. Nowhere close.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. I see it in aviation all the time. Guy buys $30k airplane, gets a $70k panel installed, and thinks he has a $100k airplane. Maaaaaybe a $60k airplane. Maybe.

These vehicles are for enthusiasts and garage mechanics. They are not for people who pay to have work done. In that case, they are disposable.

Anyway, you paid the money...maintain it well and drive it until it dies. That’s the only way to recoup your costs. Lesson learned.

With the repairs and all the new parts put in, I believe I should be able to get $2500 for this truck easily if I were to put it up for sale when I get it back. But then it would leave me in a hole, I need a 4x4 truck. I should mention that I do have a regular car as well that used to be my DD up until two years ago, 60-70% of my commutes have been in the Ford. I could not live with just a car as it doesn't suit my lifestyle but I would be fine living with just a truck. But I would miss my car as I love it (would take some getting used to) and I would have to be really confident in having a 25 year old truck as my DD logging 35km a year.

 

[CDW6212R]

Which are the 302 explorers?

The 302 came in out in 1996-2001 4dr's, 98-01 being the best.

Your truck is worth more up there by a lot compared to down here, the need for 4WD keep the values higher there.

Skip buying a stop leak now with the new gaskets and WP. Buy a coolant additive instead like Water Weter, those products lubricate the WP seals, and they help the coolant transfer heat faster. It helps to slightly bring down the running temp, and help the coolant and WP last longer. It's about $10, I put that in everything. Royal Purple makes one, but the Water Weter is available almost everywhere.

 

[98FordLove]

K-seal is a reputable sealer, normally I and most DIY'ers don't like or trust snake oil remedies and the fact that many sealers can clog up cooling system -- K seal is the exception to those. I would rest in what your mechanic states but for extra peace of mind add a bottle of this to your coolant...can't hurt and IF there is a very minute crack that he couldn't spot this will most likely seal it... especially being it's so small he could not detect / spot it.
I overheated the same engine (in Ranger) , granted not bad, and my heads / gaskets were fine aftewards.

When you checked your heads for warps and cracks after you overheated it, did you just pull them and check by eye? Or did you take it to a shop to have them checked?

 

[98FordLove]

The 302 came in out in 1996-2001 4dr's, 98-01 being the best.

Your truck is worth more up there by a lot compared to down here, the need for 4WD keep the values higher there.

Skip buying a stop leak now with the new gaskets and WP. Buy a coolant additive instead like Water Weter, those products lubricate the WP seals, and they help the coolant transfer heat faster. It helps to slightly bring down the running temp, and help the coolant and WP last longer. It's about $10, I put that in everything. Royal Purple makes one, but the Water Weter is available almost everywhere.

Thanks. No doubt my truck is worth more up here because the need for AWD is higher. Any working truck sells quite easily and fast here because a working truck is a working truck to a lot of people despite what needs to be done with it. I easily could have sold it last week for $1200-1300cdn as is, and then put say $2500cdn into that to get another truck for $3800-3900 but to find a truck with relatively low mileage and not needing a lot of work is very difficult to find. Cheaper the truck, the more work needed. And most trucks here need a lot of major work done (likely gasket work as they will have leaks) unless you spend at least $7000-8000. Plus shopping for new cars is a pain as it's time consuming and I just don't have the time for it right now.

So now at least when I get my truck back today I know that it won't need anything aside from new tires and perhaps a new battery within the next while. Suspension is still rock solid as I hate suspension work as it can be quite costly as I've rehauled entire suspensions on past cars that got well over $1500cdn. Right now with all the repairs done to it, it should be pretty darn close to a perfect work truck.

My mech is also doing the ATF pan and gasket today as he said it was leaking really bad. Oil pan and gasket, I will give a couple of weeks and then he will check as he's not sure if it is the gasket leaking or because of all the oil that was coming down from the gaskets as there was so much oil there. Fingers crossed I don't have to do this gasket too as it would be nice to save myself a repair but if I do have to do it, he will include the labour. This is one repair that I like that cars you don;t have to do on, oil pan and ATF pan and gaskets. if he wasn't throwing in the labour then I would just try your suggestion of using the RTV sealant on the corners if my oil gasket is leaking.

I will look into the Water Weter, sounds worth it.

Right now I would say I am looking to see how much my gas mileage improves with new spark plugs and new fuel filter, plus cleaned fuel injectors. Before my mileage was getting worse over time and it was currently at 200km/tank which is really really bad.

 

[EB4X]

When you checked your heads for warps and cracks after you overheated it, did you just pull them and check by eye? Or did you take it to a shop to have them checked?

My statement was based on I did not have any symptoms of a bad head gasket or cracked head after the minor overheating incident--nor did any symptoms arise for the many years after before selling it. On transmission just keep him with doing a FLUID CHANGE / filter change....do NOT have him do a FLUSH...seals that become weak and worn in a transmission with over 100k the existing residue build up keeps them in tact ....when a flush is peformed it breaks/flushes that residue out, which once again is ironically helping at this point.....I and many people have had a perfectly functioning transmission fail right AFTER a FLUSH for this very reason.

 

[98FordLove]

This whole thing has been a nightmare. Job done, new gaskets on timing cover too just finished but now the timing cover is leaking coolant. Mech still has the truck and will take a look at it tomorrow morning. If the cover is cracked then he has to tear it all down again but my car has taken up 4 full days in his shop and he's been having to turn down jobs which he is not happy about. Now what do I do? Not much I can do about the truck taking up his shop for 4 days and him having to turndown jobs.

I'm so frustrated and more worried at the moment that I just wasted my money trying to fix something that should have just been sold as is. I mean I've already spent way too much into this repair and I can't put another dollar into it. And if he asks for more money and we can't get this leak fixed then I am totally screwed, money down the toilet and I just can't afford to lose that money right now. This is not chump change we are talking. If he has to tear the thing down again and fix a crack in the timing cover (is it even repairable)?, I don't even know if he will do it without being paid for it. And I can't put another dollar into it.

Uhhh guys what should I do or say now?

 

[C420sailor]

If you’re paying a premium for top-notch work, he should work with you. You’re paying more to have the job done right, the first time. To me, that spells him soaking up at least the labor. If he is complaining, maybe he shouldn’t have taken the job.

If the cover is cracked enough to leak coolant, or if it is warped, that is something a professional mechanic should catch. That cover and the mating surfaces should be closely inspected before reassembly. Missing something isn’t acceptable, IMO.

Now if it’s a backyard guy doing the work for a song, different story.

 

[98FordLove]

If you’re paying a premium for top-notch work, he should work with you. You’re paying more to have the job done right, the first time. To me, that spells him soaking up at least the labor. If he is complaining, maybe he shouldn’t have taken the job.

If the cover is cracked enough to leak coolant, or if it is warped, that is something a professional mechanic should catch. That cover and the mating surfaces should be closely inspected before reassembly. Missing something isn’t acceptable, IMO.

Now if it’s a backyard guy doing the work for a song, different story.

I am paying a premium for top-notch work and that is why I went to him. But he knew from the start that I didn't want to spend a lot on this and when we saw that we had to replace more parts than we both originally expected and planned, then he was nice enough to cap his hours. So basically he gets the job done and he stopped billing at a point because I told him I just couldn't afford anymore past that and he wants me to walk away happy at the end. After today, he's already at 22 or 23 hours labour put in over the past 4 days and once you factor in the total cost for all the parts and the amount he had to spend on extra tools and doing a fabrication for the harmonic balancer, plus stuff like bleeding out the air, oil change, ATF change, ATF gasket and pan (labour that he's not even charging me for at this point) because he has capped his hours about a day ago, he's now been working for below his hourly rate and by quite a bit. So I can understand his point here. When he took this on, he did not see it turning into a mid 23+ hour job because he would have turned it down. And now it's not even done because the coolant is leaking (likely from somewhere else but he will check in the morning as he needs to clear his head). For him, it's all about having return customers.

He is not happy about my truck being in his shop for 4 full days now and he's had to turn down several jobs so basically he is losing money. He said he can't afford to keep losing money by turning down other jobs. I think if it is the timing cover, he should fix it (even though he has to tear it down again) and yes that will be another full day when you factor in diagnosing. He said that when he had the timing cover off and out, he hit it with degreaser 4 times and even used a brush to really clean the metal inside and out. So all the crud that he cleaned off everywhere that was holding up the engine before is now gone. This is a risk you take when fixing leaks on an old car.

We know the coolant leak is coming from the timing cover area, we just don't know if it's through the cover or where yet but he has a very strong feeling there is a crack in the timing cover. Man if this is the case then I give up as I'm just not willing to put another penny into this and buying a new timing cover is going to cost a fortune. He also said that he didn't look over the cover like with a fine tooth comb and he did check it but just assumed it was still in good shape. It has been a huge job for him and it's been stressful and I can understand how some can lose focus or just need a mental reset before continuing on.

He will check it in the morning but my worry is that he will say where the leak is coming from but that he can't keep working or tear it apart on his own time (unpaid). I don't know how to respond to something like that without all of a sudden creating hostility and a bad working relationship between us or offending the guy without intent. All I know is, I can't afford to just lose this money. I cannot put another penny into it. If I put it into it and I don't walk out with a 100% fixed truck then not only am I screwed but I will be super pissed.

I mean I feel bad for all of this and I sure in hell did not expect this to turn into a 4 day job. But it's a really tough situation to be in.

 

[98FordLove]

Just trying to get my emotions under control a bit and get my thoughts somewhat together.

Here are some possible solutions on how I think this will play out and how I can handle it without having this repair nightmare turn into a big fight or worse legal matter.

If he is not willing to fix it or tear it down again (basically put anymore time) on his own time without requesting for more money, then I have two options.

Obviously I will tell him how regretful and upset I am about how I put all this money into this repair and though initial repairs have been done and all these new wonderful parts installed, that it's still a leaking truck. I would not be happy, there is no way to explain it. I would be hugely dissapointed and more upset at myself for getting myself into this mess on something that was 100% avoidable if I had just taken another day to think it over and sell the truck as is instead of deciding to repair it.

1) I either sell the truck as is for like $1300 and take the money I just spent on this repair as a big and damaging loss. It will be a tough pill to swallow and I may not even be able to accept it, especially when it's money that I need and could have put towards other things and I just can't afford to have it go down the toilet. This is the last option.

or

2) I settle for the truck as is and try to put K-seal into it hoping it will fix the coolant leak. Again I would not be happy with this because then I just paid all this money to have the leak done and I drive off with (sure valve covers and other gaskets and parts are done and installed and the oil leak has been fixed) but still a coolant leak remaining. So basically I started this job with 3 leaking points, I now have one leaking point. Not sure if I could get my head around this though because I know the truck is still not fixed.

 

[EB4X]

Sounds like he made a rookie mistake and damaged the gasket during install/ was sloppy with gasket sealant ..whatever...... timing covers DON'T JUST CRACK....
You paid for a job done right...end of story... he'll have to learn from his mistakes like we all do and eat the extra labor....not you, the paying customer.

 

[98FordLove]

Sounds like he made a rookie mistake and damaged the gasket during install/ was sloppy with gasket sealant ..whatever...... timing covers DON'T JUST CRACK....
You paid for a job done right...end of story... he'll have to learn from his mistakes like we all do and eat the extra labor....not you, the paying customer.

He says he installed the gasket carefully and took his time and everything lined up perfect.

Can't timing covers crack over time even though this one is solid steel? Also can't they warp?

 

[98FordLove]

Here's the thing. The repairs have been done, we are just now running into complications and if it's just because the truck is old and (like removing crud on a leaking old truck and all of a sudden you remove it all and put new seals in can cause new problems), then wouldn't it be expected for any mechanic to ask for more money to address the additional complications since they were not part of the original job?

 

[donalds]

When I pay for a pro job I expect a pro job bottom line

 

[98FordLove]

When I pay for a pro job I expect a pro job bottom line

Me too. I'm just super anxious on how this is going to end really. He is diagnosing it today to find out what the issue is. I just can't put another penny into it if he's going to ask for more money to do further work. Fingers crossed he doesn't have to rip the timing cover off again.