Help! Alignment issues

[specialized7]

Hey everyone, today i had the truck go in for an alignment at midas.
An hour later the tech phoned me back saying that because of the lift he cant align the front end.
Well theres hardly any torsion twist on it maybe a half inch.
He begins to explain that he adjusted this and that and that the right side is way out. He also said i would have to take it somewhere else and he printed me out a sheet which i can not understand at all.
What can i do about this?
Here is the sheet he gave me, im wondering if theres a adjustable kit available for this?

 

[imp]

Cross camber is relatively unimportant. Excessive camber on either side, negative or positive, will wear out the edge of the tire more quickly than normal.

Cross caster is VITALLY important, if the vehicle is to track straight and not pull to one side or the other.

For my use, if it were my vehicle, I would test drive it and see how the steering handles: does it track straight on a non-crowned roadway, when you let go of the steering wheel? Your numbers, though slightly out of spec. range, would not be too troubling to me. Just my thoughts. imp

 

[specialized7]

Hey thanks for the quick reply, so this isnt really all that bad?
it seems like it pulls to the left a we bit

 

[gavin]

what degree camber bolts do you have?

and how is the toe off so much still?

you will get horrible wear on the tires with the toe set where it is.
sure, total toe looks good, but that only determines if there will be any pull.

they are well over 1* off on toe for both sides.

 

[specialized7]

see thats the thing i have no experience with alignments or anything, i also have no idea what degree camber bolts are in there, i havent changed anything so it should be stock.

the tires are already wearing funny it seems like.

 

[gavin]

see thats the thing i have no experience with alignments or anything, i also have no idea what degree camber bolts are in there, i havent changed anything so it should be stock.

the tires are already wearing funny it seems like.

wait... you did a torsion twist and didn't put in adjustable camber bolts?

there's your problem... the stock upper control arm bolts cannot adjust the camber or caster.

although the tech is a bit of a... erm... incompetent... for not even getting the TOE set correctly.

edit: also, it will pull to the left because of the (relatively) high negative toe on driver side, and positive toe on the passenger side. Positive toe equals toe-in, which means the front of the tire is pointing towards the center of the vehicle. Negative toe equals toe-out, which means the front of the tire is pointing away from the center-line.
And looking at the toe settings, one positive and one negative, both tires are pointing the same direction; which is to the left.

 

[specialized7]

Now im understanding what some of this means, it pulls to the left pretty bad if i let go of the wheel on the highway and instantly im headed into oncoming traffic.

And yes i did the torsion twist then took it in for an alignment, i didnt know i need to get the bolts?
where can i get them?
where do they even go?
i dont need to rip off the upper control arm do i?

 

[gavin]

Now im understanding what some of this means, it pulls to the left pretty bad if i let go of the wheel on the highway and instantly im headed into oncoming traffic.

And yes i did the torsion twist then took it in for an alignment, i didnt know i need to get the bolts?
where can i get them?
where do they even go?
i dont need to rip off the upper control arm do i?

let me correct myself first... the incorrect toe setting will not necessarily make it pull, but the steering wheel will not be centered when driving straight.
When steering wheel is centered, you will "drift" to the left, due to those particular toe settings.

as for bolts; they're called camber adjuster bolts, iirc. Lots of posts around on these. And yes, it will require you to remove the existing UCA bolts, and replacing them with the adjustable ones. You don't necessarily need to remove the whole arm though.

You should be able to find them at Napa, Carquest, O'Reilly's, Schmucks, etc. I'm honestly surprised the alignment shop didn't try to sell them to you.

 

[specialized7]

I just searched and found a whole write up on the bolts.
i asked the shop if there is an adjustable kit available for them and he said we dont do that here.
well now i know what to get im hoping those upper control arms arent seized on.
Thanks alot for the help man!

 

[gavin]

I just searched and found a whole write up on the bolts.
i asked the shop if there is an adjustable kit available for them and he said we dont do that here.
well now i know what to get im hoping those upper control arms arent seized on.
Thanks alot for the help man!

arms definitely won't be seized... they move with the suspension :
bolts are tricky though, atleast the driver's side, due to the brake lines.

after you do the bolts and get it aligned again, definitely don't let them push you out the door if the toe is not within spec

btw, does the print-out show the original numbers? or did you get another print-out that would show the numbers before they did anything?

 

[specialized7]

well he said that he adjusted one thing .03 degrees so im not sure what he changed, thats the only paper he gave me.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Hell your problem is the fact the spec sheet says "Rear wheel drive van: Explorer" :scratch:

 

[specialized7]

lmao probably i dont think im going to be going back there, iv been there twice and each time they have sent me home pissed off haha.

 

[gavin]

Hell your problem is the fact the spec sheet says "Rear wheel drive van: Explorer" :scratch:

lol
that's because the "Ford Truck, SUV" is cut off of the pic :

pretty sad that their machine doesn't print out the "before" specs.

but if he only adjusted something .03*, well, I could only guess toe. But why so so so very little is beyond comprehension.

lmao probably i dont think im going to be going back there, iv been there twice and each time they have sent me home pissed off haha.

yeah... they obviously have an incompetent tech if they couldn't even get toe to spec. Although, I guess I could ask, did they charge you for this?

oh wait... they would be able to adjust caster on the passenger side due to the 2-piece UCA.

 

[specialized7]

He charged me 25 bux the *******

 

[gavin]

He charged me 25 bux the *******

ah.
that would be why they didn't do much.

atleast they didn't charge you full price!

 

[imp]

Gavin, not to be a "pick", but please set me straight. Unless the physics of front wheel steering has been changed, as long as the 2 wheels are mechanically tied together by the steering system, how can we speak of individual toe values for each wheel?

IF the vehicle is set to move straight forward, and both wheels face exactly forward, no angle included between them, and IF the caster on each side is exactly ZERO, then the only side "pull" which could occur would be due to the surface on which the wheels sit not being flat and level; in other words, under these conditions, only gravity would act to "pull" the vehicle to one side or the other......Right?

Now, we know that manufacturers determine that certain alignment specs. are optimal for a given vehicle, and they specify a certain amount of "toe-in", or "toe-out", this being measured ALSO as the vehicle is set to move straight forward, (necessary because of the Ackerman Principle, which causes toe to change drastically as the wheels pivot from side to side in steering.

Caster causes the wheel to tend to pivot toward straight-ahead position, due to the weight being carried by it. "Toe", whether in or out, tries to "drive" the vehicle to one side or the other, that is, causes the vehicle to "pull", if the caster is different on one side than the other. So, caster "split" is the single most important thing to prevent pull- it must be ZERO, that is, SAME caster angle on both sides.

Are you in disagreement with this? Thanks. imp

 

[Gabe96Explorer]

Personally, what I would do, is take your truck to another alignment shop, one that DOES alignments.

Sears, Firestone, GOODYEAR. and see what they have to say...

Midas... well... lets just say I wouldn't trust them with a set of copper washers... (no offense if anyone works at a Midas)

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Personally, what I would do, is take your truck to another alignment shop, one that DOES alignments.

Sears, Firestone, GOODYEAR. and see what they have to say...

Midas... well... lets just say I wouldn't trust them with a set of copper washers... (no offense if anyone works at a Midas)

I feel the same about the three places you listed. Some of the biggest rip off places there are. No I don't work for Midas.

 

[gavin]

Gavin, not to be a "pick", but please set me straight. Unless the physics of front wheel steering has been changed, as long as the 2 wheels are mechanically tied together by the steering system, how can we speak of individual toe values for each wheel?

because of the adjustable tie-rod on either side. 2 adjustable tie-rods = 2 adjustable toe settings. Although looking at the individual toe settings will only tell us whether or not the steering wheel will be centered when driving straight.

IF the vehicle is set to move straight forward, and both wheels face exactly forward, no angle included between them, and IF the caster on each side is exactly ZERO, then the only side "pull" which could occur would be due to the surface on which the wheels sit not being flat and level; in other words, under these conditions, only gravity would act to "pull" the vehicle to one side or the other......Right?

incorrect camber can also cause a pull.

Now, we know that manufacturers determine that certain alignment specs. are optimal for a given vehicle, and they specify a certain amount of "toe-in", or "toe-out", this being measured ALSO as the vehicle is set to move straight forward, (necessary because of the Ackerman Principle, which causes toe to change drastically as the wheels pivot from side to side in steering.

yes

Caster causes the wheel to tend to pivot toward straight-ahead position, due to the weight being carried by it. "Toe", whether in or out, tries to "drive" the vehicle to one side or the other, that is, causes the vehicle to "pull", if the caster is different on one side than the other. So, caster "split" is the single most important thing to prevent pull- it must be ZERO, that is, SAME caster angle on both sides.

Are you in disagreement with this? Thanks. imp

yes. Although too much or too little caster can still cause issues with tracking and steering, also.