LOL you guys have to see this!!

[Papa]

I agree 12VDC no way but 120VAC will. Most of your good lawn blowers will push up to 450 CFM at that point who cares how many RPM and yes you would need an inverter probably 1500 watt to enough juice. Way over $30.

 

[Brandons]

It would be interesting to test the 120VAC blower, without wasting any money on it, you could use a computer UPS with one of them blowers but i doubt it would last very long..

 

[tnmk]

Any article i've erver read says that the "true" ram air setups (factory)don't come into play until a certain speed is reached. (usually over 60mph) That's not about cooler temps, it's about air speed and pressure in the intake tube.

 

[tnmk]

Please everyone bear in mind I am only talking theory and in no way support this particular system. "If" it were to work there is no way it could be sold for a mere $130.00.

 

[Brandons]

Yeah it would probably be really expensive if it did work. Maybe someday theyl make one but who knows..

 

[xplrsport01]

thats got to be the dumbest thing i've seen so far on ebay!

 

[tnmk]

Also, anyone that's ever taken a fluid dynamics class as a part of their engineering curriculum knows two basic things about fluid flows. First, anything like the Tornado in the airstream is going to act as a flow restriction. Period. Second, laminar flow is ideal and turbulent flow moves less fluid through the plumbing. If the Tornado generates turbulent airflow in the air intake tract, it's 100% impossible to move more air. Therefore, it's completely impossible to make more power. (as proven on the dynos)



-Joe

First of all I already stated that the Tornado doesn't work. I'm not sure if it creates turbulance, but it does restrict flow. It restricts flow because of poor design. There are other ways to get the air to spin without creating restriction. (I've never heard of "laminer" air flow, unless you meant linear) But a "vortex" does compress the air. Not a whole lot, but never the less it does. In fact we use some spinning air on one of the products we build where I work and it's done to create a little more air pressure. But we do it by introducing the air at a right angle to the tube so when the air hits the side of the tube it creates a vortex on it's own w/o restriction.

Not that I've done a dyno, but I modified a venturi or resonator as some call it on my other car, I opened it up which allowed for more flow and noticed a big difference. I drove it that way for a couple of weeks before I modified it further with some fins on the opening of the venturi to create the vortex. I DID NOT expect to feel a big difference if any at all. but for the cost of the mod I thought what the heck why not. I was very surprised to feel a significant difference. I'm not the only one to atest to the benefits of this mod. The guy I got the idea from has done this mod as well as a few variations to it. w/o doing an actual dyno has been very scientific about the whole process. He takes it out puts another in etc and runs times and watches for power gains and losses at various rpms, etc. His conclusions are the same as mine. Getting the air to spin w/o causing restriction works. period.

 

[justin146]

Real electric superchargers do exist though

 

[BrooklynBay]

I wonder how long this was on the market? I've never seen this advertised. How much current does this require, since it appears to have 3 starter/hydraulic pump style motors? They are probably all part of some gear train. It must gear up to a faster speed. The internal parts are probably turning a few times faster than the motors to achieve such a massive boost ratio.

 

[Doubt Incarnate]

the basic formula for calculation airflow:

engine size cubic inches X max rpm / 2 /1728 X VE = cfm of air pumped by the motor at said rpm.

for us 4.0's: 244.1 x 6000 / 2 /1728 x .8 = ~ 339cfm @ 6000rpm.

im sure there will be nay-sayers. am i a certified pro? nope, so i wont argue. the VE may be higher for the sohc motors, not 100% sure.

if electric superchargers were capable of producing boost at lower rpms that maybe benificail to us with the sohc, but if it cant keep pushing up into the top of the powerband, it will strangle the motor.

i've pondered these constantly. it runs a constant speed and will only show its metel at lower rpms, once you rev out you'll discover that is still at factory hp levels, just maybe a flater curve. i've tossed the idea around in my head with using a speed controled unit, one that doesnt spin at idle and will increase flow as you rev, the biggest problem here is getting the flow to show boost and not totaly stress it out causing premature failure. a gearbox to make use of a high rpm motors power band would make a big difference. a lot of time with rc cars im dissapointed by the get up and go of a high dollar motor but if i happen to gear it correctly i get faster acceleration and top speed. if there was a gearbox equipped head unit with a 20K+rpm motor attached, you might be able to do something with that, maybe you could even use r/c motors, i dunno.

 

[BrooklynBay]

You could either use a switch to activate it at wide open throttle only, or an rpm triggered switch similar to the ones made by MSD. That would fine tune the kick in threshold level of the system.

 

[justin146]

I wonder how long this was on the market? I've never seen this advertised. How much current does this require, since it appears to have 3 starter/hydraulic pump style motors? They are probably all part of some gear train. It must gear up to a faster speed. The internal parts are probably turning a few times faster than the motors to achieve such a massive boost ratio.

It is basically just an Eaton supercharger with an electronic drive. If I am not mistaken, the small Eatons( like used on motorcycles and watercraft) can be run at up to 15,000RPM. It will require more curent to run than you regular battery supply- two red/yellow tops should do the trick.

1071.43 amps is what it would draw if you figure it at 14 volts, but it is made to run for short bursts.

 

[BrooklynBay]

I'm sure a high amp alternator with a high current isolator system would work well on this. The motors would require a constant duty solenoid to provide current, but would have to be replaced pretty often. I have an electric steering system on my 88 that uses a hydraulic pump, and a dual battery system with an isolator. The solenoids don't last long, since they are working like an arc welder every time they cycle. I also have to replace the pump's brushes every now, and then.

 

[gijoecam]

Just a note... on my calculation above, I was assuming 100% volumetric efficiency. We all know this is impossible...

From eFunda.com:

laminar (non-turbulent): An organized flow field that can be described with streamlines. In order for laminar flow to be permissible, the viscous stresses must dominate over the fluid inertia stresses.

Now, here's some critical info:

rotational A rotational fluid flow can contain streamlines that loop back on themselves. Hence, fluid particles following such streamlines will travel along closed paths. Bounded (and hence nonuniform) viscous fluids exhibit rotational flow, typically within their boundary layers. <b>Since all real fluids are viscous to some amount, all real fluids exhibit a level of rotational flow somewhere in their domain. Regions of rotational flow correspond to the regions of viscous losses in a fluid.</b> Inviscid fluid flows can also be rotational, but these are special nonphysical cases. For an inviscid fluid flow to be rotational, it must be set up that way by initial conditions. The amount of rotation (called the velocity circulation) in an inviscid fluid flow is conserved, provided that the fluid is also barotropic and subject only to conservative body forces. This conservation is known as Kelvin's Theorem of constant circulation.

A vortex does not compress the air like a supercharger. A super generates positive pressure which results in a more dense air charge entering the engine. A vortex generated in the intake tract can increase the density of certain regions of the airflow, but does not change the overall density of the intake air.

A venturi and a resonator are two completely different things, so you could not be modifying it. A venturi increases airflow and generates a pressure DROP from one side to the other. A resonator on a car is part of the exhaust system, used to dampen the sound pressure waves generated by the exhaust pulses. I'm not sure which part you're referring to.

Searches for laminar flow and turbulent flow on Wikipedia are pretty informative as well.

Finally, it boils down to simple physics. Any flow other than laminar flow is not going to move as much air. That includes a vortex or twisting airflow. Why are the insides of water pipes smooth instead of being twisted like candy canes (or gun barrels) to generate a vortex? They flow more water that way.

As for that electric unit, it's got potential, but look at how it's plumbed in: It tees into the intake upstream of the throttle body. Unless there is sometype of check valve, any positive pressure the system generates will simply be blown back out the air filter. All it does is work to reduce the intake vacuum, thereby increasing the net airflow into the engine. Neat concept, but it's only good for 15 seconds at a time.

Look at it from another perspective: Let's say a regular Eaton roots-typs supercharger takes 10Hp to spin it at whatever speed it's turning when the engine's at 5500 RPMs. Now, do drive the supercharger electrically at the same RPM, it's still going to take the same amount of power, whether it's being driven electrically, mechanically, pneumatically, hydrauilcally, or otherwise. How big would a 10 Hp, 12VDC motor be??? Freakin' HUGE, not to mention the amount of current it would draw!!! These gimmicks are just that: Gimmicks. Soem of them may generate *some* benefits, but they're nowhere near true forced-induction gains.

-Joe

 

[tnmk]

OK, didn't go to college.
Work daily with engineers that did.
Air Flow is a very big part of their work, Have discussed this with them. Admittedly they are hesitant that there would be benefit to the "twisting" air. But did tell me that there would be a higher pressure in the middle of the vortex, lower on the outside. Maybe it's the way it enters the throttle body with the higher pressure in the middle that makes a difference. I don't know, I'm not an engineer.

What I do know is that I truly did not expect to feel any difference at all when I did the mod. But the difference was very noticeable. Most of the power between 3000 and 5000 rpm. It pulls like stock until suddenly at 3000 rpm you feel a boost of power that wasn't there prior to the mod.
It is a venturi (like a funnel) in the intake that as stock narrowed down from around 2" to about 1 9/16". They call it a resonator because some feel it's only purpose is to quiet the intake noise. But as some have come to realize, removing it makes the car a little quicker because you increase the size, but if it's modified so that it doesn't taper down and is 2" all the way through it helps to remove the turbulance and makes a bigger difference than removing it all together. Here is a picture of what I did http://ptcruiserworld.tenmagazines.com/mygallery.ten?id=3880
I would like to do a comparison dyno on what I and a few others have done for the air flow on our intakes(on my other car). However more important things in life take precedence as well as the cost being prohibitive.

You can talk all the techno stuff you want and it is certainly valid. But what I know is that my mpg got better (maybe only due to the K&N Drop in and opening up the stock intake parts) and power feels significantly better in my butt!

Oh yea, I never said it compresses the air like a supercharger. I only said it compresses it. and maybe I'm wrong, but not accrding to the engineers I work with.

as for 12VDC motors, it's not about the voltage or ac or dc current. it's all a math problem. The lower the voltage, the higher the amperage. I have a 12VDC cordless drill that has enough torque to practically break my wrist . Convert that energy to speed with the right type of blower and ????? (I haven't done the math and don't plan too, but you get the point)

Point is, it's all theory and near as i can see here it is a feasable concept, but to really make it work would probably be very expensive.

The one in the ad claims 75+ hp boost, what if they made one that only gave you 20-30 hp, how much easier and cheaper would that be?

K - I'm done

 

[BrooklynBay]

Could you explain the picture of the part you made (material, size, cost, etc.)?

 

[tnmk]

The part is already a part of the car. Originally it funnled down from 2" to about 1 9/16". I cut out a section in the middle and split the funnel side then JB welded the 2 halves together, Filled in the gap (you can see the 2 lines on the left fin where I filled the gap) so now it almost a full 2" all the way through (but about an inch or so shorter). I then added the fins.
This is located on the throttle body side of the intake.

I did see some venturis on Jegs for 65,70 and 75 mm throttle bodys. YOu could look there. I might get one and try the same thing on my mounty. I think they were about $15.00
Cost for that mod was about $1.50 for the aluminum I bought to make the fins.

 

[gijoecam]

It is a venturi (like a funnel) in the intake that as stock narrowed down from around 2" to about 1 9/16". They call it a resonator because some feel it's only purpose is to quiet the intake noise. But as some have come to realize, removing it makes the car a little quicker because you increase the size, but if it's modified so that it doesn't taper down and is 2" all the way through it helps to remove the turbulance and makes a bigger difference than removing it all together. Here is a picture of what I did http://ptcruiserworld.tenmagazines.com/mygallery.ten?id=3880
I would like to do a comparison dyno on what I and a few others have done for the air flow on our intakes(on my other car). However more important things in life take precedence as well as the cost being prohibitive.

Now I understand what you did. You removed a restriction in the intake. Removing intake restrictions is a sure way to move more air through the plumbing. It's the same thing aftermarket intake kits by AEM, K&N, et al strive to do: Reduce the restrictions in the intake tract.

Point is, it's all theory and near as i can see here it is a feasable concept, but to really make it work would probably be very expensive.

Agreed. Indeed, the would be very expensive and still very inefficient, and that's precisely why not a single OEM produces them. If they worked well, everyone would be using them.

Also, back to the venturi for a second.... venturis do three basic things. They restrict the amount of fluid that can flow through them, they create a pressure drop across them (up-stream versus downstream) and they increase the velocity of the fluid flowing through them. It's all bernoulli's principle that causes the changes in velocity and pressure. Now, by changing the speed of the air flowing through the intake tract, you change the frequency and wavelength of the pulses that *can* and do generate noise in the system.

Now, as to why the OEM installed that unit in the system, I'm in agreement with the general consensus that it's there to, in part, help reduce the noise generated by the air flowing through the intake. However, there could be other reasons for its existance in addition to that one. Without being personally involved with the design of the rest of the intake system, I can't say for sure, but one possibility is that, by increasing the air's velocity at lower RPMs, you *may* increase the inertial supercharging effect on the intake, which could help low end torque. The disadvantage to do ing so is that you *may* then be starving the engine at higher RPMs. The OEM would have determined an optimum compromise for this setup and designed the system accordingly. Since engineering any system on a vehicle is a series of engineering trade-offs (in this case, possibly low end torque for high-end ponies), the piece could certainly do far more than just quiet the intake.

Also, if my theory was correct, (and it's just a theory based on my limited knowledge of fluid flow and IC engine intake design) it would also explain the noticable difference in feel you experienced. If opening up that intake cone cost low end torque, it would feel like there was a greater difference in power at the higher revs (where a more freely flowing intake would benefit it), the difference in the power band would be more pronounced. As we've both already agreed, without before and after dyno numbers, it's all theory and conjecture.

-Joe

 

[gijoecam]

Just another thought.... Had they not included that piece, the flow coming from below the air filter would have needed to round a sharp edge, which would have generated turbulence right at the pening to the intake. By installing a bell-mouth there, it helps maintain laminar flow into the inlet. (It was actually one of the labs I did in my fluids lab way back in the day...)

-Joe

 

[Turdle]

So, would this help for a situation where an elbow is needed in front of a MAF sesnsor? Would it calm the turbulence to the sampling tube?

This seems to give credibility to the "tornado"