Maximum Traction Solution - 4th Gen Differential Tech

[The Electrician]

Thanks, It sounded like that might work but I wasn't sure since AdvanceTrac is applying braking to a single wheel and I'd be applying to all. The more brake I apply the more power that would be applied to the wheel that has traction?

Actually it is the other way

I assume the same would be true for ice, If i had two wheels on a sheet of ice with no traction (one front and one rear) those wheels on the ice would spin and the wheels with traction would do nothing. But, if i applied a small amount of brake the power would begin transferring to the wheels with traction?

Helical LSD or Torque Sensing carriers send the power to the side with more traction using a torque multiplier and differentiater


when a wheel is air born the traction on that wheel is zero and anything multiplied by zero equals zero

so you need a minimum traction in order to make the multiplier works and differentiate the torque between two side then send the power to the side with more traction

for that I told you you just need a light touch on the brake to provide the minimum traction. (no need to do that with T2R unit because there is a pre-load springs within T2R unit which provide the minimum traction all the time)



on ice the minimal traction is there and the helical LDS will work without any input from the driver

Is there a typo here or did you actually put the torsen in front and you wish you chose the other setup? What makes the setup with one torsen better than the setup with two truetracs. Would a torsen in front and rear be "the best"?

I've read that the T2Rs are better at keeping traction when one wheel is up than the TruTrac? Is this your experience?


This information is incredible, really. Thank you!

If I knew back then what I know now I would use TrueTrac in both axles; front and rear


I used torsen in front because during my search, I bought Torsen Dana 35 unit (I though back then that my front axle is Dana 35) and the only option for me is to replace it with Dana 30 unit because Torsen don't refund.

note that there is no T2R for Dana 30
also Torsen online shop is down now for a newer version.


luckily for Ford 8.8 diff. there is fordracing torsen T2R unit and you can buy it from every where e. g. summitracing, jegs etc.


Note:

Dana 30 diff. Torsen T2 is 2.4:1 Bias Ratio
Dana 30 diff. TrueTrac is 3.0:1 Bias Ratio

Ford 8.8 diff. Torsen T2 is 2.2:1 Bias Ratio
Ford 8.8 diff. TrueTrac is 3.5:1 Bias Ratio
Ford 8.8 diff. Torsen T2R is 4.0:1 Bias Ratio

with torsen T2R even when there is no traction on the wheel (air born), there is no need for any input from the driver because there is a pre-load springs within T2R unit

 

[rewind1]

I will def be doing the TrueTrac up front. But I'm on the fence about the rear, which is the one I need to do most since it is worn out.

The the T2R would be the perfect combination but the cost at over $600 is a negative factor and the springs scare me. One great thing about the Helical is that there is no maintenance but I'm sure those springs wont last forever in the T2R.

The TrueTrac should be ok in the rear but would require some use of the brakes to make it work. And is still kind of expensive at near $480.

The Spartan Locker seems like it will provide the most traction all the time, but I'm worried about wearing parts out. I just might be the type of person who drives like a bat out of hell no matter what the conditions are . And the price is so attractive especially after the rebate going on right now that will make it about $220. Damn you, Ronin . but I also think the Noise on turns would bother me and this is my daily driver that occasionally goes off-road.

Hmm... decisions, decisons.

 

[Ronin8002]

The Spartan Locker seems like it will provide the most traction all the time, but I'm worried about wearing parts out. I just might be the type of person who drives like a bat out of hell no matter what the conditions are . And the price is so attractive especially after the rebate going on right now that will make it about $220. Damn you, Ronin . but I also think the Noise on turns would bother me and this is my daily driver that occasionally goes off-road.

Hmm... decisions, decisons.

The only wear you would be concerned with on the Spartan Locker is your tires...if you decided to do burnouts or whatever. Yes I suppose the locker itself will wear out eventually, but that wasn't a problem when I had one on my DD. The noise was audible but I got used to it...never bothered me really.

If you decide to go the Spartan route, I have one that is new in the box that I can let go for a better price than $220. let me know.

 

[The Electrician]

I will def be doing the TrueTrac up front. But I'm on the fence about the rear, which is the one I need to do most since it is worn out.

The the T2R would be the perfect combination but the cost at over $600 is a negative factor and the srpings scare me. One great thing about the Helical is that there is no maintenance but I'm sure those springs wont last forever in the T2R.

The TrueTrac should be ok in the rear but would require some use of the brakes to make it work. And is still kind of expensive at near $480.

The Spartan Locker seems like it will provide the most traction all the time, but I'm worried about wearing parts out. I just might be the type of person who drives like a bat out of hell no matter what the conditions are . And the price is so attractive especially after the rebate going on right now that will make it about $220. Damn you, Ronin . but I also think the Noise on turns would bother me and this is my daily driver that occasionally goes off-road.

Hmm... decisions, decisons.

you should not be scared of the springs at all and T2R unit is maintenance free

The 2TR unit for ford 8.8 diff. is OEM on Mustang FR500S race car

so you should rest assure it is street and high speed friendly

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10196


Ronin8002 gave you a good advice as well

Either way, you'll enjoy your ride more

 

[engineeering]

[MENTION=167008]The Electrician[/MENTION]

Thanks for the excellent write up! This is extremely helpful for those (like me) that know little about all the differential options.

Since you are quite knowledgeable... what would you suggest for me? My main objective is to lower the ratio (may or may not go to limited slip). But while i'm in there, it makes alot of sense. Off the top of your head... any suggestions for my situation (options for LSD and non)?

-preference for 4.56 ratio (I believe I have 3.73 in my 4.0L and want to go up quite a bit... 32" tires and manual swap have lowered my ratio considerably)
-I like the idea of Torsen in the back and Truetrac in the front. But on a tight budget.

Thanks!

 

[Jet Ski Puller]

Some great information here. Much of it was very valuable!

However, take it from my experience . . . DO NOT use the Jeep Liberty [ LIB ] parts listed for the front axle [2002-2007]. They are NOT the same. I have a Jeep Liberty front axle paper weight to prove it! Both are versions of the Dana Super 30. They both use the same differential carriers and ring gears. BUT the pinion gear shafts are completely different. The Liberty is shorter and more heavy duty.

I think I did finally find a version of a 4.10 gear set that will fit the front axle . . .

 

[Paul Fithian]

Note that a Spartan Locker should not be used in a Ford 8.8 IRS unless the side couplers are modified per the attached. Without it, IRS CV axles hit the carrier pin before the circlips can expand into the recess, preventing positive engagement of the axle in the side coupler.

Going forward, new Spartan Lockers for the Ford 8.8 will include this modification to enable use in both Live Axle and IRS 8.8 differentials.

See Spartan Locker Install Ford 8.8 IRS

 

[HVY-MTL]

Jet Ski Puller
Did you ever verify the 4.10 gears for the front? Do you have Make & model #? I am having the same issue. Rear housing is all set up and ready to go with 4.10's. I first ordered Motive Gear D30-410 for the front that were very close, but would not accept the crush-sleeve. The pinion diameter between the inner & outer bearing was too big. Original has a slight taper between the bearings, but the D30-410 are a straight cut with no taper on the shaft. Some more research found a D30CS, but I have only been able to find it in the two factory ratios of 3.55 & 3.73. Any info on the correct gears for the front of a 2008 ST with the Dana Super 30 and 4.10 or 4.11 ratio would be great ! !

 

[Jet Ski Puller]

Jet Ski Puller
Did you ever verify the 4.10 gears for the front? Do you have Make & model #? I am having the same issue. Rear housing is all set up and ready to go with 4.10's. I first ordered Motive Gear D30-410 for the front that were very close, but would not accept the crush-sleeve. The pinion diameter between the inner & outer bearing was too big. Original has a slight taper between the bearings, but the D30-410 are a straight cut with no taper on the shaft. Some more research found a D30CS, but I have only been able to find it in the two factory ratios of 3.55 & 3.73. Any info on the correct gears for the front of a 2008 ST with the Dana Super 30 and 4.10 or 4.11 ratio would be great ! !

Yes, I now have 4.10 gears front and rear. Worked out great, but took some doing to come up with the right gear set for the front. There is no crush sleeve application in a 4.10 ratio for this housing. The only gear set available in a 4.10 ratio is YG D30-411. The part number says 411, but it actually states a 4.10 ratio on the box. BUT, you will have to shim the pinion shaft in the traditional manner, again a crush sleeve will not work. I used the same specs from the OEM service manual for pinion bearing preload. This pinion gear also uses a different outer bearing than OEM. It has a smaller ID for this shaft, but the OD is compatible with the OEM race in the housing. The bearing part number is M86647. I'm running both of these parts in my truck now. Over 1100 miles and no issues. No noise or anything strange when I run in 4WD as well. I have an SCT tuner which also allowed me to enter the correct tire size and change gear ratios to 4.10. Speedo is spot on now.

Feel free to contact me with any other questions!

 

[HVY-MTL]

Man, THANKS for the quick response ! ! Fantastic info, especially the bearing Part #.

I have no problem eliminating the crush sleeve and shimming for proper pre-load, but is there an aftermarket spacer available to start with? I assume it will have to be tapered due to the smaller diameter of the outer bearing race like you mentioned vs. the larger inner bearing race?

Thanks, again, this should keep me moving forward ...

 

[Jet Ski Puller]

Man, THANKS for the quick response ! ! Fantastic info, especially the bearing Part #.

I have no problem eliminating the crush sleeve and shimming for proper pre-load, but is there an aftermarket spacer available to start with? I assume it will have to be tapered due to the smaller diameter of the outer bearing race like you mentioned vs. the larger inner bearing race?

Thanks, again, this should keep me moving forward ...

You won't need a spacer. Unlike the current crush sleeve that goes between the two bearings, the new shaft has a step in it near the outer bearing. That is why the new shaft uses a bearing with smaller ID. The shims go between this step and the outer bearing. I had all of my settings documented somewhere, but misplaced the paper. I seem to remember my shim stack being some where around 90-some-thousandths . . .

 

[HVY-MTL]

Makes sense. I will get the bearing ordered and jump back into it. Appreciate all the info ! !

 

[EFFalcon]

So has anyone actually done a front selectable locker in a 3rd/4th gen?
seems most people end up going LSD's.

 

[Bazz270]

Do you feel like you really need it?i mean gen 4 it is actually a giant mall crawler with low gear BW electromagnetic transfer clutch action

Not even close to be "real" offroad action transfer case..

 

[EFFalcon]

Do you feel like you really need it?i mean gen 4 it is actually a giant mall crawler with low gear BW electromagnetic transfer clutch action

Not even close to be "real" offroad action transfer case..

You don't 'need it' until you do.
I agree there are better cars for the job, but i do wonder if anyones actually gone and done it or not.

 

[oy1crazyace]

You don't 'need it' until you do.
I agree there are better cars for the job, but i do wonder if anyones actually gone and done it or not.

You may find some answers in the 4th gen FB group or the overland(ish) explorers group. Seems to be some good guys on there that actually wheel the 4th gen. Ive done some mods to mine and have had some of the same question's as well. Done a little light wheeling too, nothing that has needed that yet. I would like to go farther with it, but life and money are in the way right now. Most of what I do now is drool at these guys set ups lol.

4th Gen Group

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Overland(ish) Explorers Group

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I'm in Off road Explorer's as well, but these are mostly 1st and 2nd gen guys lol

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[oy1crazyace]

You may find some answers in the 4th gen FB group or the overland(ish) explorers group. Seems to be some good guys on there that actually wheel the 4th gen. Ive done some mods to mine and have had some of the same question's as well. Done a little light wheeling too, nothing that has needed that yet. I would like to go farther with it, but life and money are in the way right now. Most of what I do now is drool at these guys set ups lol.

4th Gen Group

Log into Facebook

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www.facebook.com

Overland(ish) Explorers Group

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Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

I'm in Off road Explorer's as well, but these are mostly 1st and 2nd gen guys lol

Log into Facebook

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Case and Point on the Overland(ish) group:

"Idc what anyone says about the 4th gen.. the challenge of building this thing with the complete lack of any aftermarket support, has been hell, but fun at the same time."

 

[EFFalcon]

Case and Point on the Overland(ish) group:

"Idc what anyone says about the 4th gen.. the challenge of building this thing with the complete lack of any aftermarket support, has been hell, but fun at the same time."

Thanks, i'm ok with joining another group!
but i agree, i like the DIY element and the uniqueness that goes with it.

 

[JonathanExp]

Would love to know if anyone has put an elocker (19818-20) in the front of their 3rd/4th gen. (or any selectable locker for that matter) the original post makes it seem like it will work but i cannot get a confirmation from eaton, and their website is teeeerrible. and the ring diameter noted in the original post (7.2 in) is different then what the spicer/dana website says 7.32in (at least for the 708098-3 ring gear and pinion kit). the whole "super" dana 30 just seems to muddy the water as i cannot find what the "super" really means since the spline count is still 27. maybe just the bearings???
and i stumbled on this (Nuts & Bolts - Which Front Locker Fits This Ford?) which helps but still leaves you hanging.
the original poster and ronin8002 do not seem to be around anymore.
happy to swap out the front which something that i can put a selectable locker in but i feel like is going to be a whole new can of worms.
frustrating as heck.

 

[Bazz270]

The only way to know what spec you do really have is to reassemble and measure your own axle.

Every part of Gen4 Dana30 axle may be modified by Ford (like ZF modified 6R60 ford transmission) since it is not really OEM Dana Spicer product.

Ford probably purchased from Spicer some technologies or a license and produced Gen4 front axle according to their own needs