military rules for non-military

[turbo8]

I'm with Stephen...

We are all fighting for the freedoms we enjoy. We just may do it in different ways. No way is any more or less important than the next, though some ways are more popular than others. Some sign up to fight for our country in wars, while others stand in opposition to the war. Some raise the flag on a flagpole, while others burn the flag. Certainly these are very much opposing ways to show your patriotism, but they are still ways to do it.

People who work in retail, restaurants, the medical field, city government, the military, as well as the stay-at-home parent, college student, and everybody else in this country...We all fought for, fight for, or will fight for one day, these freedoms we enjoy. We all have done it, do it, or will do it in our own way. The way we each do it may not be accepted by everyone else. There are people all over this country doing what they can, in the best (or only) way they know how. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for what you believe in. It takes a great deal of courage to sign up to fight, knowing you may lose you life and never see your family again. It takes courage to demonstrate your contempt for government by burning the flag, knowing 99.9% of the people in this country will hate you and think you are wrong. I personally would NOT burn the flag just to prove the point that it's my right or to let people know I'm not happy with our government's choices. There are much more constructive ways to get attention and instigate change. Burning the flag & protesting the war are acts of patriotism, no matter how unpopular. We all want this country to be in a better place and maybe flag-buring is someone's (albeit twisted way) of showing it. We all fight for our freedoms and we all do it a little different from the next guy, accepted or not.

My dad was an Air Force flyboy for 26 years, serving in during Vietnam, retired in 91. Dad did not fly, but was in intellegence. My grandad was in the Army Air Corps for I don't know how long, doing I don't know what and served in WWII. I should ask him about it, now that I think of it...and thank him while I'm at it. I have worked in city government for 5 1/2 years, happily and proudly serving my country on a community level.

I also volunteer one Saturday a month to make blankets for Project Linus to provide them to children in need, in an effort to give back to my community and feel more a part of it. This part just makes heart feel good too.

Thank you to all who fight for this country, no matter how you do it.

 

[Doug]

Just because the military is volunteer doesn't mean that our lives are more expendable than any one elses. The men and women of the armed forces make alot of sacrifies for this country alot of times with out thanks. Just because we volunteered doesn't make it ok for us to die in a 3rd world hell hole and leave family and friends behind. Just like being a cop is a dangerous job it isn't ok for some crack head to shoot a cop even though we all know being a cop is a dangerous job.

I don't buy the crap alot of these special interest groups and "protestors" bring to the table. Most if not all have thier own agendas that they're fighting for and they don't care about the affects on others. What would you consider a great battle being fought these days by demonstrators and such? In the past people fought against slavery, people fought for civil rights, Women's right to vote, etc. These are all good things and they got done. I don't see anything akin to that happening in these days. Now people seem to fight for thier own interests, not the interests of others.

Though with having said that, I have a lot of respect for the Mother and the Father who goes to work everyday and busts thier ass off to provide for thier family. I have respect for the men and women who go out and put in an honests days work and don't try to take advantage of the system just because they can.

 

[dreadknots_girl]

doug- im on board with you on that one.
i can honestly say i have an idea what this war is but idont know much. i thought we were fighting for rights. for the rights of the women there and for what they have done to us but i may be mistaken. let me know....

 

[Doug]

There isn't any who has posted in this thread and I don't of of any one on the board that has been to Iraq or Afgahnistan and has seen what is happening there for themselves. My unit is deploying to Afgahnistan around March, I'll do my best to get on line and send some pics back home for you all. I'll do some real reporting over there.

 

[caveman1]

I was on the truman when the war started.I had been to most of the arab countries before the war was even thought of.The way the people live over thier would amaze the most strong hearted.The level of poverty and the attitude of people in those regions is scary.I first herd of the towers while i was under one of my S3-b aircraft.I am from NY and i had a tear immediatly.Not only for Ny but for the pentagon as well when i herd about the crash thier.Alot of your opinions i have read sound strong and well thought out.For those of you that don't understand the military i am proud to inform you of what i do without being upset.I'm an AE3 with Vp-30 and VERY proud of this.Any ?'s you can send a message.I see in the news what you all see so i dont have any further knowledge that you have.I salute whenever i get the chance as will my son when he is older and can understand the meening of my great flag.I won't kick your ass if i see you burning it as i know it is much stronger than you or i could ever be and you will never hurt it.I may knot have been in the desert but i was on the most dangerous 4 acres on earth.THE FLIGHT DECK.I put my life on the line for my country.My wife took the chance to be with me knowing i my get hurt or killed while being out to sea.If you see a vet you should show some respect to atleast say thanks.My wife has a little yellow ribbon on the truck so show her the same respect for supporting me if you see it.Don't listen to these actors that have something to say about the war or what is the situation over thier.If they truly wanted to help they would give some of thier riches to help the wounded vets.Wesly snipes donated an empty check to a certain base for vet affairs.Thats someone to be proud of.Brad the *** and the others on his side should shut the hell up and help instead of try to lime light in the media.
I wrote this off the top of my head so if it sound alittle off i don't give a dam becouse i earned the right to talk **** if I want to or not.If you have a problem with this thats to dam bad.I serve proudly as well my wife and son by my side.I would hope you all get the chance that i have to feel this kind of pride.

Thanks for letting me RANT.
AE3 Lanier US NAVY

 

[caveman1]

Also stay safe doug and thank you.

 

[JGAMBLE]

well somehow or another this thread has turned into a liberal vs conservative thread Where I stand should be pretty obvious. I know there has to be both sides to the coin. I still love it when metal bands do crazy stuff that's way to the left. Without extremes there'd be no middle. That being said groups like GLAAD and the ACLU have done nothing to make america better and I honestly look forward to their demise. You want to make america better? Stand up for what it was founded on and quit perverting what the founding fathers said for your own purposes. No they weren't perfect, but no matter how you look at it they were genius's and would be ashamed of what we've become today.

 

[oso2324]

Doug, I appreciate your spit and vinegar but your statement of no one writing to this thread not having been in theatre is just wrong. Perhaps its my age and experience that allows me to see the bigger picture, from both a strategic and tactical level. BTW my son is proudly serving in theatre also. Keep your powder dry and return home safe.

 

[Doug]

Doug, I appreciate your spit and vinegar but your statement of no one writing to this thread not having been in theatre is just wrong.

You're right, what I should have said was no one who has commented in this thread has stated they've been to a combat zone.

 

[oso2324]

Been there-Done that. I've been to several over the years and none of them pleasant. Salvador, Just (be)Cause, Colombia late 93 early 94 (mission accomplished), Operation Restore Democracy. And yes I've to Iraq! I've been shot at and missed, **** at and hit. I am all too familiar with insurgency and counterinsurgency. Please don't infer that I don't support the troops because I disagree with the pretexts used for OIF. I'm gald that you don't buy the crap from all the special interests, niether do I. But don't forget that the govt has spewed its own crap. Perhaps the most recent best known instance was Pat Tillman's demise by friendly fire. The Army initially LIED about those circumstances and used his unfortunate death for the Pentagon's own public relations reasons.

 

[shaggsta]

Oso brings up a good point... while many 'social activists' may be creating drama to further their own personal interests, it seems obvious that the government is doing the same. While many of us don't agree with this war being fought, we still support every individual in theater and in training who are putting themselves in harms way for a cause that they may or not believe in, or may or may not really exist in the first place.

 

[Doug]

I agree with you on the state of our government. Some (ok alot) of the people in power scare me. We got some real nuts in congress and in the senate. Alot of them lobby for special interest groups and have thier own personal interest. I feel very few of them do things for the greater good, just for thier own selfish wants/needs. I know alot of people here don't like Bush but I have to give him credit. He may not be well spoken and he does some dumb things but he surrounds himself with some pretty damn smart people. Donanld Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell and others. I give him credit for staying the course in Afgahnistan and Iraq. Despite all the bad things that are said everyday about him and the Middle East he is doing what needs to be done.

 

[dreadknots_girl]

you know i cant say that i have been to iraq or anything (chances are i will within a year reserves deploy all the time) but my bf has been there for 5 ish months with a grunt unit next to Ramadi. Every time i talk to him he tells me things that happen there that he does and sees and i just cant imagin it all. Hes part of here to. his name is Bobdreadknot on here. you can look our ride up at this www.cardomain.com/ride/487173
For all of those intrested i posted some pics
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Poolee_Vest
its my journel and i put pics he sends in it.

 

[Stephen]

You're right, what I should have said was no one who has commented in this thread has stated they've been to a combat zone.

I've been to Korea and my brother fought in Vietnam. Our father fought in WWII. During WWII the whole country fought hard and did without to further the war effort, if not for the civillians back home we would not have prevailed.

And again, it doesn't matter if anyone here has been to a combat zone. You're still forwarding the propaganda that a soldier is a better American than a civillian and thats simply not the case.

Let me pitch the porcupine back at you guys, if it wasn't for all of us back here in the states working, investing, contributing to the economy and paying our taxes then your jobs wouldn't exist. My only point is that our system of government is just that, a system. Without one aspect of that system it cannot function, and there really are no more important aspects.

I got a lot of things to respond to here.

Just because the military is volunteer doesn't mean that our lives are more expendable than any one elses.

Of course not, but they aren't any more important either.

well somehow or another this thread has turned into a liberal vs conservative thread

How? Aside from your comments and a couple of the ones preceeding them I think this has been a remarkably bipartisan discussion, especially for this site.

Stand up for what it was founded on and quit perverting what the founding fathers said for your own purposes. No they weren't perfect, but no matter how you look at it they were genius's and would be ashamed of what we've become today.

Were you there? What gives you this remarkable insight into the minds of 18th century scholars? How do you know they'd be ashamed of what we are today? Did you play golf with Thomas Jefferson yesterday or something? I havent seen ol' TJ in ages.

Thats just political rhetoric and it has no meaning. You have to look deeper into our political system and how our country works and form your own, educated, opinions. We've got a lot of really versed and knowledgable folks on this site and in this thread and that type of stuff is out of their league.

What would you consider a great battle being fought these days by demonstrators and such? In the past people fought against slavery, people fought for civil rights, Women's right to vote, etc.

What you've got to realize is that at the time those things were being fought for they were "stupid", "self-serving", "pointless", "unimportant", and furthering of a "liberal agenda". You dont know that because it happened before your time. Todays fights you call "pointless" are tomorrow's "right and just battles that were won". People today are fighting for womens rights in America, not to vote now no but to earn as much for their skills as a man, to have control over what happens to their bodies, to be able to work at a job without having to worry about sexual advances by men, and to be seen as equal and even citizens. If you think women, minorities etc in this country are equal you're crazy.

People today are fighting for our right to have a free and private press, to be free from opression and government intervention in what goes on in our own homes, for better education for our children, for money to fight diseases that destroy lives that in 2005 shouldnt be allowed to be destroyed. Wait until you're my age. I'll be gone but your kids will read in history books about the first woman president, the first black president, the protection and solidification of a woman's right to choose, the iradication of aids and diseases like parkinson's disease and cancer. The things that will have killed me long before then will not be around to kill you. Soldiers won't have accomplished those things either. People will, in the streets.

Again I'm not trying to belittle what the military does, it has a purpose but it is not the be all and end all of our liberty.

 

[shaggsta]

I too must say how amazed I am at how civilized this discussion has remained... what wonders never cease to amaze....

 

[JGAMBLE]

seems to me this country fore-fathers had some extremely christian beliefs and they were written into just about everything they did... I'll go look for examples later and post em. So I highly doubt they'd be proud of us slaughtering milliions and calling a woman's right. Nor would they be proud of GLAAD or the ACLU.

 

[oso2324]

JGamble, while your looking for quotations may I commend ALL the Federalist Papers. I thin you'll find there was no unanimity on all issues. It should be remembered that during our revolution this nation's popluace was deeply divided over the issue of independence and remaining loyal to the Crown. Perhaps the best known illustration of this was the estrangement between Ben Franklin (Founding Father) and his son (loyalist). Our Founding Fathers bulit an amazing experiment in the concept of self-government and perhaps the biggest issue of the day was the issue of slavery YET in order to form a more perfect union they, by consensus, decided to defer that issue for consideration by future Americans. Sounds remarkably similar to the current political discussion/debate on the future of Social Security.

I think it important at this juncture in this enlightening thread that people remember their history and historical precedent. I disagree with the use of the Iraqi threat of WMD as a pretext for OIF because I remember well the Gulf of Tonkin and the ensuing Resolution which propelled us headlong into the Viet Nam debacle. I remember learning of the National Security Act of 1947 and the creation of the CIA to prevent future "Pearl Harbors" and yet 9/11 happened; and I believe it could have been prevented. Now we have a Department of Homeland Security and a Director of National Intelligence to insure that another 9/11 never happen again. I hope we've done more than just rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

In that regard, the govt needs to have a check on its ever increasing presence in the lives of its citizens. The Congress and the American people are right to be dubious and skeptical of govt claims for the need of an expanded Patriot Act. One need only recall the damage done by Sen McCarthy and the red scare. Granted there were communist sympahtizers in the US but innocent peoples' lives were ruined based on innuendo and slur during the Red Scare. Can you imagine the resurrection of the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities. I can, as long as the govt uses fear to feed their goals.

Much of this country's foreign policy decisions are based on the near to mid term objectives with little thought given to long term consequences. Remember when Saddam was actually an ally of the US. There is a famous photo of Rumsfeld with Saddam in Baghdad. Manny Noriega was one of our allies and a personal acquaintance of Bush 41 until he became a liability. And ask yourselves what kind of ally the US had been to others. We abandoned Afghanistan when the Soviets were driven out, we left our Cuban surrogates on the beaches at the Bay of Pigs in Cuba; we left the Kurds to fend for themselves against Saddam after Desert Storm after telling them to rise up and we would be there to support them and their cause. Granted, I see my points as academic but they reflect historical reality.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[JGAMBLE]

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

 

[oso2324]

J- Thanks for providing the site. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of "freedom OF religion" and not "freedom from religion" as the ACLU and others would argue. Religion and sprituality do have their places in public debate and there can be no doubt that belief in the Almighty played a significant role in shaping the debate of the times of our founders. Unfortunatley there is a flip side to this coin as well. Some have chosen to pervert the concept. Beware of those who ostracize others for not believing as they do. Check the recent press reporting about the latest scandal at the US Air Force Academy by some Christian cadet zealots. As a matter of fact an indepth report is being issued tomorrow about protestant zealotry, this coming on the heels on rape scandals at the USAF Academy. and the Academy Chaplain resigned today. Any "ism" can be used for one's own agenda and political purposes.

 

[oso2324]

One other comment on the place of religion in the historical development of this hemisphere. One primary objective of Spanish colonization of the New World was the conversion of native peoples to Catholcism. This occured from the tip of Argentina, up through what was to become the Andean republics, the Central American isthmus, and all of Mexico. The Spanish enslaved native peoples in order to convert them for the glory of God while makng the Spanish empire rich. In New England Protestants burned people at the stake for being witches. During the Plains Indian wars of the last half of the 19th century, our govt was so afraid of the Ghost Dance that they conducted a military campaign against its practioners. Because of its Marxist leanings Liberation theology, coming out of the Second Vatican Council of 1964 founded the basis and gave popular legitimacy to some of Latin America's more famous insurgent movements, including the FSLN.

The only thing I'm suggesting is to be aware that people will try to inject their particular stream of religious beliefs into secular matters.