Project "Flatlander" 2002 Mounty Build-up to 450+rwhp

rocket 5979 · October 6, 2008

whitestang04gt said:
Definately not a problem, we run em through the shop regularly, 4.6 & 5.4 mod motors our our specialty. Just made 801rwhp in a 2000 lightning with a single turbo not too long ago....

I am quite experienced with the modulars as well and a stocker 4.6 2v bottom end will not hold together for very long at 550rwhp even on a turbo. There are some who have had luck and held together for one or even two seasons but those are outnumbered by many others who gave up the ghost; even with proper fueling and a solid tune.

whitestang04gt · October 6, 2008

rocket 5979 said:
I am quite experienced with the modulars as well and a stocker 4.6 2v bottom end will not hold together for very long at 550rwhp even on a turbo. There are some who have had luck and held together for one or even two seasons but those are outnumbered by many others who gave up the ghost; even with proper fueling and a solid tune.

I would never attempt 500 on a stocker....Thats a ticking time bomb...We don't push the stockers much over 380-420 depending on what power adder were using....& even with a built motor, much over 500-550 is useless on the street anyway unless you have superior traction, this I'm building more for a street sleeper than anything...Its funny how many 400-420rwhp cars we take to the track that just smoke the 550-600rwhp cars because of traction issues, i get a kick out of it everytime. Being this is a high mileage 2v and automatic I'll probably keep it to the 380ish range until we do a long block...I'm just itching to strap this thing to the dyno behind me, its killing me, just a couple bugs to work out, been holding out for awhile hoping Diablo would release the tuner for it, but it looks like I may have to go SCT on it through one of my tuners....I think its going to be a fun project, I'm sure your ride has hurt many a feelings in its day...lol...I'd rather make a slug go fast that a rabbit go faster...

turboexplorer · October 6, 2008

rocket 5979 said:
I am quite experienced with the modulars as well and a stocker 4.6 2v bottom end will not hold together for very long at 550rwhp even on a turbo. There are some who have had luck and held together for one or even two seasons but those are outnumbered by many others who gave up the ghost; even with proper fueling and a solid tune.

Is a turbo easier on an engine than other power adders?

justin146 · October 6, 2008

turboexplorer said:
Is a turbo easier on an engine than other power adders?

Yes- With a supercharger, you get lots of strain on the crank snout. With nitrous, you get a sudden surge of power (unless you have a progressive setup). Turbocharger power, in most streetable forms, has a very linear power curve.

But with a bad tune, just a few pounds of boost can kill an engine...

sparkyXplorer · October 6, 2008

rocket 5979 said:
I am quite experienced with the modulars as well and a stocker 4.6 2v bottom end will not hold together for very long at 550rwhp even on a turbo. There are some who have had luck and held together for one or even two seasons but those are outnumbered by many others who gave up the ghost; even with proper fueling and a solid tune.

Instead of him saying 550 on the stock bottom end is definitely not a problem, I believe that he is saying rebuilding the bottom end is definitely not a problem...

turboexplorer · October 6, 2008

Nice, that all makes sense!

rocket 5979 · October 6, 2008

turboexplorer said:
Is a turbo easier on an engine than other power adders?

To piggyback off of what Justin said in his previous post...

In addition to those items already mentioned the turbo will usually make more hp per pound of boost when compared to the other forms of FI too. So if I have a 550hp turbo car vs a 550hp supercharged car (assuming same exact engine configurations) I am usually running a decent amount less boost in the turbo car. That means that I am not straining things as much because while I am making the same hp I am probably doing it at a lower IAT (intake air temperature) which will allow me to run safer spark timing before encountering detonation. In addition to that my fuel system will also be able to keep up for a little longer because I am running less boost which means that my injector delta will be more efficient.

rocket 5979 · October 6, 2008

sparkyXplorer said:
I believe that he is saying rebuilding the bottom end is definitely not a problem...

Heck, in rebuilt form these 4.6's are seeing well past 1k rwhp using a stock cast iron or Teksid alum block. Even the WAP (stocker Explorer block) has seen past 700rwhp without issue in rebuilt form. Gladly the blocks themselves can take it in stock form, just the internals aren't much up to the task past about 400-425rwhp on a supercharger or 450-475rwhp on turbo.

Hey whitestang just curious but what do you have planned for fueling? I ran the stocker system with KB BAP and 42lb injectors up to 400rwhp on the Kenne Bell a few years ago. After that once I did the big rebuild I said screw it and went full return and 60's. I didn't notice any mention of something specific planned so I figured I would ask.

turboexplorer · October 7, 2008

Thanks for all the good info, and this will be a fun project to watch

whitestang04gt · October 7, 2008

rocket 5979 said:
Heck, in rebuilt form these 4.6's are seeing well past 1k rwhp using a stock cast iron or Teksid alum block. Even the WAP (stocker Explorer block) has seen past 700rwhp without issue in rebuilt form. Gladly the blocks themselves can take it in stock form, just the internals aren't much up to the task past about 400-425rwhp on a supercharger or 450-475rwhp on turbo.

Hey whitestang just curious but what do you have planned for fueling? I ran the stocker system with KB BAP and 42lb injectors up to 400rwhp on the Kenne Bell a few years ago. After that once I did the big rebuild I said screw it and went full return and 60's. I didn't notice any mention of something specific planned so I figured I would ask.

Yeah the blocks are good, but when you or i say stocker, I'm meaning in factory form, slap an aluminator short block in there & your good to 900hp...I won't push this one very far before rebuilding a long block...We are having our heads CNC'd soon for production, still have alot of other products in development stages...

As for Fuel, I'm exploring a fuel things, 39lb or 42lb injectors with Cobra/Lightning MAF until I go over the 475-500 mark then 63lbs.
As for Fuel Pumps I will probably be adapting what we do on the lightnings but not sure yet..Mostly consentrating on the N/A & driveline right now....Unfortunately I am anti KB, IM experience too many problems & alot of other things I'd rather not really get into. We do not sell, install or service KB out of our shop at all...We lean towards the task to fix the problems with fuel & spark correctly rather than relying on a band aid to boost fuel or spark...Don't get me wrong, there good products, "when used correctly" & not relied on to max out a fuel system like alot of other guys do...

My turbo build is still in the development stages, once i get all the N/A parts R&D'd, my driveline & fuel system finished, i will map it out more.

awdrocks · October 7, 2008

Hitchhikingmike said:
hu? the stock curb weight of my 2wd explorer is 5360 lbs.

I think the scale was a little off! I have a full weight EB part-time 4x4 with 295/40/20s, supercharger and a bunch of other upgrades to make it heavier and mine weighed in at 4,886 with a 1/4 tank of gas.

rocket 5979 · October 7, 2008

whitestang04gt said:
Yeah the blocks are good, but when you or i say stocker, I'm meaning in factory form, slap an aluminator short block in there & your good to 900hp...I won't push this one very far before rebuilding a long block...We are having our heads CNC'd soon for production, still have alot of other products in development stages...

As for Fuel, I'm exploring a fuel things, 39lb or 42lb injectors with Cobra/Lightning MAF until I go over the 475-500 mark then 63lbs.
As for Fuel Pumps I will probably be adapting what we do on the lightnings but not sure yet..Mostly consentrating on the N/A & driveline right now....Unfortunately I am anti KB, IM experience too many problems & alot of other things I'd rather not really get into. We do not sell, install or service KB out of our shop at all...We lean towards the task to fix the problems with fuel & spark correctly rather than relying on a band aid to boost fuel or spark...Don't get me wrong, there good products, "when used correctly" & not relied on to max out a fuel system like alot of other guys do...

My turbo build is still in the development stages, once i get all the N/A parts R&D'd, my driveline & fuel system finished, i will map it out more.

Yes, the stocker engine blocks themselves will hold to the power figures I previously described. Obviously the internals will need to be upgraded to live to those power levels but the blocks themselves in stock form will hold it. Big difference between block, shortblock, and longblock.

Just curious but why would you buy an Aluminator, install it, and then plan to rebuild again later? After all, if you already will have a built shortblock and then have the CNC'ed heads then why rebuild yet another longblock?

I would suggest starting out with the 60's right off the bat. If you plan to run more power in the future then no need to buy two sets of injectors, retune it twice, and so on. The only reason I would ever go with the smaller injectors and then step up to bigger ones later is if I planned to hold off on the bigger mods for a considerable amount of time later (1+years).

Anti-KB??? Problems??? I am quite familiar with these blowers both on my own vehicles as well as many other peoples vehicles and there are not a terrible amount of issues with them. About the biggest issue with them was after they came out with the big bore blowers and the vacuum bypass didn't operate well on some. Replaced the part and it was good to go. Now as for KB the company??? Well I think they are a bunch of snakes in many ways. This is from direct personal experience. However, from a technical standpoint it is hard to argue. The KB BAP is quite similar to any other fuel pump voltage stepper you will find out on the market. If you have ever messed with some of the bigger Aeromotive fuel system components in street driven vehicles then most are running voltage steppers so as to minimize vapor lock. Whether it is "stepping up" or "stepping down", voltage stepping fuel pumps is nothing new and KB is not the only one that practices that. While I too consider it a bandaid fix to proper fueling it all depends on what the end goal is. If a person just needs a little more fuel on a street driven vehicle then a voltage booster is fine. Anything more than that and it will be best to upgrade at least the pump. Going for big power and you might as well swap to a full return system and either do a custom dual Walbro setup with a custom in-tank pump hat like I did in my phase 2 build, or just go with a bigger external pump which is what I did in phase 3. There is more than one way to skin a cat though.

What specific turbo do you have planned? Conventional mount or remote mount?

whitestang04gt · October 7, 2008

rocket 5979 said:
Yes, the stocker engine blocks themselves will hold to the power figures I previously described. Obviously the internals will need to be upgraded to live to those power levels but the blocks themselves in stock form will hold it. Big difference between block, shortblock, and longblock.

Just curious but why would you buy an Aluminator, install it, and then plan to rebuild again later? After all, if you already will have a built shortblock and then have the CNC'ed heads then why rebuild yet another longblock?

I would suggest starting out with the 60's right off the bat. If you plan to run more power in the future then no need to buy two sets of injectors, retune it twice, and so on. The only reason I would ever go with the smaller injectors and then step up to bigger ones later is if I planned to hold off on the bigger mods for a considerable amount of time later (1+years).

Anti-KB??? Problems??? I am quite familiar with these blowers both on my own vehicles as well as many other peoples vehicles and there are not a terrible amount of issues with them. About the biggest issue with them was after they came out with the big bore blowers and the vacuum bypass didn't operate well on some. Replaced the part and it was good to go. Now as for KB the company??? Well I think they are a bunch of snakes in many ways. This is from direct personal experience. However, from a technical standpoint it is hard to argue. The KB BAP is quite similar to any other fuel pump voltage stepper you will find out on the market. If you have ever messed with some of the bigger Aeromotive fuel system components in street driven vehicles then most are running voltage steppers so as to minimize vapor lock. Whether it is "stepping up" or "stepping down", voltage stepping fuel pumps is nothing new and KB is not the only one that practices that. While I too consider it a bandaid fix to proper fueling it all depends on what the end goal is. If a person just needs a little more fuel on a street driven vehicle then a voltage booster is fine. Anything more than that and it will be best to upgrade at least the pump. Going for big power and you might as well swap to a full return system and either do a custom dual Walbro setup with a custom in-tank pump hat like I did in my phase 2 build, or just go with a bigger external pump which is what I did in phase 3. There is more than one way to skin a cat though.

What specific turbo do you have planned? Conventional mount or remote mount?

Yeah, your not telling me anything new. I didn't say I was doing an aluminator I was just stating the fact that people could go with an aluminator block as a built short block ready to go & hold alot of power..We deal Ford direct...For this project I would either pull this motor & rebuild it or use one that I already have built, we have a plethera of parts, injectors & mafs, fuel setups are not hard to come bye i have drawers full of them. Like I say my shop specializes in the 4.6 & 5.4 mod motors 96-present, we've done many, many, many projects from DD to all out race cars, so parts & knowledge is not a problem for this project, i have it mapped out in stages, but until I decide "exactly" what I am going to do, I am not saying. When I get done with the N/A part I will release the information on the turbo & motor build part, it will be a custom kit & not a remote or off the shelf kit. I may even go with a S/C temporary before I do the built motor & turbo, like i say we are doing alot of R&D for alot of companies. So this will be a long process.
As far as fuel I have some things in the works, it will be a full return style, but It may have 3 pumps, we are working on a new fuel basket, but haven't gotten to that point yet.

whitestang04gt · October 7, 2008

Just got the new BBK 78mm TB/Plenum 1-Piece..will post pics soon...

rocket 5979 · October 7, 2008

whitestang04gt said:
Yeah, your not telling me anything new. I didn't say I was doing an aluminator I was just stating the fact that people could go with an aluminator block as a built short block ready to go & hold alot of power..We deal Ford direct...For this project I would either pull this motor & rebuild it or use one that I already have built, we have a plethera of parts, injectors & mafs, fuel setups are not hard to come bye i have drawers full of them. Like I say my shop specializes in the 4.6 & 5.4 mod motors 96-present, we've done many, many, many projects from DD to all out race cars, so parts & knowledge is not a problem for this project, i have it mapped out in stages, but until I decide "exactly" what I am going to do, I am not saying. When I get done with the N/A part I will release the information on the turbo & motor build part, it will be a custom kit & not a remote or off the shelf kit. I may even go with a S/C temporary before I do the built motor & turbo, like i say we are doing alot of R&D for alot of companies. So this will be a long process.
As far as fuel I have some things in the works, it will be a full return style, but It may have 3 pumps, we are working on a new fuel basket, but haven't gotten to that point yet.

I have been in this ballgame for a long time both as an enthusiast and as a shop owner myself. Make a plan and stick with it. The best approach you can use is to be decisive. The "I may do this or I may do that" approach will end up costing more money and not netting the proper results if you are indeed researching performance products for the Explorer for other companies. The approach needs to be methodical and scientific, not shoot from the hip.

You keep referring to all this "R&D" that you are doing for "all these companies". What specific companies are you talking about and what are you R&D'ing? I could see there being good reason, from a business standpoint, to have done R&D on this particular generation of Explorer some years back but not now. This platform is only going to have less and less to offer from here on out due to it not being currently produced with this engine, transmission, or fuel system. Doesn't seem like a smart approach if this is truly for business purposes.

IZwack · October 7, 2008

Can we just watch whitestang04gt do his thing? Cauz I seriously hope this thread doesnt turn into some of the other need-for-speed threads that have had to be closed or deleted

whitestang04gt · October 8, 2008

IZwack said:
Can we just watch whitestang04gt do his thing? Cauz I seriously hope this thread doesnt turn into some of the other need-for-speed threads that have had to be closed or deleted

I agree with that, I'm definately not here for any pissing contests, or to compete about whos smarter. I am always open to listening, but definately don't need anyone telling me how to do our own inhouse projects, especially when we are already in the business & have been doing this for some time. We have a dynojet 224xlc & licensed Diablo CMR tuners, along with a dealer for many big name companies from maximum Motorsports, fore precision, volant, tunable inductions, wheel replicas, DTS, LFP, performance distributors, weapon x, brisk racing, mac performance, livernois, and a long, long list of others.
I am not going to go into any details on any of my R&D until I have given my research to those business's & have the go ahead from them on publishing information about our findings & there products. People still R&D & release products for small block chevys & cars that are over 50 years old, I don't think a vehicle thats 6 years old is outdated, that would be a close minded business approach, and thinking that way would be a bad business descision, people still make products for fox bodies...
I have a plan, I have a couple plans, the thing about plans, is if your not making informed decisions on every product & setup, you stand to make a mistake that causes you to be constantly changing. I have a company that we may R&D a roots charger, but i know I will ultimately go turbo, so all that is months down the road. When we decide exactly what we are doing in it final stages, it will be posted & it will be final, because it will work. We build engines, fuel systems, & drivetrain all the time, thats nothing new, its an everyday job. But not every one of those works for every person, car or purpose, thats why everything is custom. Every shop has there own ideas & what they like & don't like, I respect that & expect the same respect.
This project is planned out in stages, & I have only given limited information, I don't post information until I have all the facts & findings, so until then we will continue on our path, right now this is all about the vehicle in N/A form & products that the average consumer can buy or will be able to buy, to achieve more power & better fuel economy. So not sure how this thread got off subject on built motors & what kind of turbo when I clearly stated that it was a future mod after everything else has been done.
For now I will only answer questions on the N/A build as it pertains to what has already been done, which at this point I'm still on the first tank of gas since we got it back together, this thread is less than a week old & its talking about stuff that were going to do 6-9 months from now, so lets get back to present day.......

whitestang04gt · October 8, 2008

New BBK TB/Plenum that we will adapt to our application

Turdle · October 8, 2008

Geez, what is that 90 mm?

jah81592 · October 8, 2008

whitestang04gt said:
Definately not a problem, we run em through the shop regularly, 4.6 & 5.4 mod motors our our specialty. Just made 801rwhp in a 2000 lightning with a single turbo not too long ago....

801 lightning-hopefully not a stock bottom (LOL-just joking)!

whitestang04gt said:
I would never attempt 500 on a stocker....Thats a ticking time bomb...We don't push the stockers much over 380-420 depending on what power adder were using....& even with a built motor, much over 500-550 is useless on the street anyway unless you have superior traction, this I'm building more for a street sleeper than anything...Its funny how many 400-420rwhp cars we take to the track that just smoke the 550-600rwhp cars because of traction issues, i get a kick out of it everytime. Being this is a high mileage 2v and automatic I'll probably keep it to the 380ish range until we do a long block...I'm just itching to strap this thing to the dyno behind me, its killing me, just a couple bugs to work out, been holding out for awhile hoping Diablo would release the tuner for it, but it looks like I may have to go SCT on it through one of my tuners....I think its going to be a fun project, I'm sure your ride has hurt many a feelings in its day...lol...I'd rather make a slug go fast that a rabbit go faster...

Making an Explorer go fast is interesting but definately against the grain. I have been doing it for many years. I am about to purchase another ride (which is in my shop now). My next setup will definately be "making the rabbit go faster". If you need a tuner, give me a shout I should be able to assist.-j

turboexplorer said:
Is a turbo easier on an engine than other power adders?

Project "Flatlander" 2002 Mounty Build-up to 450+rwhp

rocket 5979

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whitestang04gt

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turboexplorer

justin146

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sparkyXplorer

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turboexplorer

rocket 5979

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rocket 5979

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turboexplorer

whitestang04gt

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awdrocks

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rocket 5979

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whitestang04gt

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whitestang04gt

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rocket 5979

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IZwack

whitestang04gt

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Turdle

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jah81592

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