The War Wagon: Slowlyvverot's '93 X Eltee

[Foxracin]

Just get a drop pitman arm and make sure the steering is close to even. I havent had any problems out of mine. Im using stock steering with a drop arm.

 

[4x4junkie]

Hey thanks for the comments on mine. Glad I could be of some inspiration.

Your plan overall looks pretty good to me. I would suggest the Stonecrusher steering kit (or at least something with similar geometry) as that's about your only practical option if you're setting it up for a 6" lift height and flexier coils. The Superlift Superrunner would require too many modifications to work well at that height to be practical (4" is the max lift I'd suggest using it at).


That lift above looks like a pretty old Skyjacker.
I've seen where that fat bracket for the passengerside beam rubs against the front diff when the driverside goes to full compression. Plan for some grinding on it to gain clearance (at least it's not a drop-plate type like said though).

The opposite side bracket I would also reinforce (also looks like you'll need to drill holes if you want to use those brackets at 4" of lift, I see only a 6" hole).
This thread has some info on reinforcing the bracket
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230697


Alright hope that helps. Nice work on it so far.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

Thanks for the feedback 4x4junkie. If you don't mind sharing, how did you move your rear axle back? I saw you mention it on your CD but not how you achieved it.

I am gonna gusset the drop brackets in all the places that have the slightest inkling of being weak spots. I want go completely overboard in engineering this front suspension, because there's no kill quite like overkill!

Question for those with experience: I've heard that a sway bar/dual shock setup is recommended on the front if you're going to run flexy coils and drive your rig on the road. Is this true? Which setup do you prefer if it is?

Even though I've laid out a lot of plans and done plenty of reading up on countless things about the ttb on this forum for many months preceding this registry, I still have a lot of things to decide and learn about for this build. Then I'll still have to build the damn thing!

Thanks to those who have answered my queries thus far, and I hope to have your continued support in the near future. Time constraints are probably gonna delay the start of physically working on this thing for another month or two. Maybe till after New Years?

I rearranged the plans for this project in a more organized way in the 1st post, and added an item or two to the list.

 

[4x4junkie]

Thanks for the feedback 4x4junkie. If you don't mind sharing, how did you move your rear axle back? I saw you mention it on your CD but not how you achieved it.

I moved the spring hangers back on the frame. Not sure how the hangers are on an Ex, but I would think the same can be done.

As for shocks, I just have singles up front on mine, it drives perfectly fine in routine driving, though I can tell duals would make it handle better if I were to swerve hard (it also rocks side-side a little, which I think duals would help get rid of).
Proper geometry of your steering will play a much larger role in handling than the shocks will though (it seems too many guys in the past just went and stuffed some long flexy coils in there, but paid absolutely no attention to their steering... WHen the thing started acting all crazy and jacking itself and squealing tires and isht, I guess their natural thought was to put more shocks on it, not fix the steering... and is likely where all the "must use dual shocks" comments came from).

That said, I've actually been contemplating putting duals on mine too, not so much for the handling, but to be able to bomb it through the whoops faster (as it is, it tends to bottom out pretty hard fairly easy).

I made a page on Supermotors too (created it after months of frustration with Cardomain's f'ed up editor interface which they've finally fixed since). Much of it's the same as on my CD, though there's a few other things there too
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/22445

 

[Slowlyvverot]

I moved the spring hangers back on the frame. Not sure how the hangers are on an Ex, but I would think the same can be done.

OK. I'll take a peek under my truck and see if I can see that working out. The spring hanger is mounted on the underside of the frame so I guess you could mount it back where the frames starts bending upwards. Would the new angle of the hanger adversely affect anything? I don't know why it would.
Edit: I couldn't find a picture so I went out and took one

It looks to me like if you moved the hanger back and up along the frame it would decrease lift for the rear axle...
yes?
no?
Hmmm i may just skip this part if it ends up being too much effort to make this work.

Thanks for the new link! lots of good pictures and little snippets of info I haven't seen before. I've read lots of your tech articles on TRS and I will be following several of your write ups to the letter; I hope you don't mind haha I picked up early on in my Explorer Quest-O'-Knowledge that steering can make or break the ttb, so I'm going to make sure I get a proper setup worked out before I start driving this thing around.

Did you write this article? http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Fall2003/MaximumFlexForTheTTB.htm

and if so, does this statement still hold true?

With proper modifications in these areas though, I believe 20+" of travel is achievable with a 22" long spring on a 6" lifted truck.

I am interested in that last sentence. Since I am looking for a solid 6" of lift in the front, should I indeed go with a 22" long jeep spring? That's my next task, determining how tall of a coil I need and what the PPI needs to be for a heavier 4 door Explorer, so that I can end up at 6" over stock height. I am not good with numbers (my worst subject throughout high school) so if anyone wants to throw me a bone here, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Apparently TJ and XJ coils are the same dimensions, but the TJs' have lower spring rates. However I have not found any coils for an XJ above 6" of lift so I may have to think about TJ coils instead.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

Oh shi-
I think I found the motherload of spring rate info. for jeeps anyway. This is just what I needed.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/faq-coil-spring-measurements-638947/

Also...I've been thinking about the coil buckets more...I want to get stronger aftermarket buckets because I've seen pictures where the stockers have failed...but will jeep coils fit in duff buckets? Apparently XJ/TJ/EB/f150 coils are all extremely similar in dimensions...hmmmm.
I may just go with the stock buckets till/and if they break and then figure out what to do at that point in time. Ahh but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

More updates/epiphanies/random drivel:

I have exchanged a few emails with Anthony at Stonecrusher Steering. He says they can make me a steering setup akin to the one used on ThatFabGuy's Explorer. Here is the email he sent me.

Thank you for your interest in Stone Crusher. Yes, we built the steering systems for that Explorer and yes, we can build one for you. This system is a little more complicated than a typical straight axle system and it takes a little more adjusting to get the tires to not lean in and out during acceleration and reverse. It will also require for you to take a number of measurements for us. The cost of the system is $315.00 plus shipping. If you would like to continue, send us your zip code and we will send you a total cost with shipping along with what measurements we will need.

Sounds good to me, although I don't know how soon I will be able to get those measurements to him. I talked with a neighbor of mine today about renting out a space in his friend's garage. He said it will be possible, so I just need to get started on gathering my parts for this project. By then I will hopefully have a place to work on the lumbering behemoth for a few weeks.

I ran some numeros (spanish for numbers) last night while falling asleep. They concern the necessary height and PPI of the coils I am looking for. We shall refer to these mystery coils as "Coil X" until I figure out what ones i actually need. Clever, and a bit suave, eh?

Anywayyyyyy here's what I came up with, based off of numbers in the "Maximum TTB Flex" article on TRS. It details droop and stuff numbers and the coil size required for 3-4" of lift with an 18" jeep coil, while using all the available space for flex in the front end. The end result is that an 18" coil at 240 PPI will use the 9" of droop and 6" of stuff (15" total wheel travel) available with 3"-4" drop brackets and extended arms. The author conjectures that "20+ inches of travel is achievable with a 22" long spring on a 6" lifted truck."

I did some basic math and ended up with these numbers:
22" coil at 187.5 PPI will yield 20" of wheel travel: 12" of droop, 8" of stuff. The X factor in my calculations was the correct size coil for a Jeep TJ. After looking around, I found that Skyjacker makes a 6" TJ lift coil that measures 22" and is rated at 182 PPI.

Is this Coil X? I'm not entirely sure, because that's a realllly low spring rate for an Explorer. Remember that stock Ex coils are 500 PPI. This may end up not giving me anywhere near the 6" of lift I am looking for. ThatFabGuy's experience with soft EB coils on his 6" duff lift also have me unsure about this. The EB coils were rated at a higher PPI than these TJ coils and he was having serious issues with the ttb completely unloading (drooping, basically raising the front of the truck up so much that the suspension is maxed out) while driving forward. I think the Stonecrusher steering fixed this, but still. a bit apprehensive about these TJ coils.

Perhaps a better alternative option (that I still need to look into) is 8-9" XJ coils. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head (I've seen some conflicting reports), but I think they are a similar height as the TJ coils and are rated for a higher PPI ( in the mid 200s IIRC). I will check read up on the XJ coils and let everyone know what I figger out.

By the way, if anyone sees these calculations as slightly or waaay off, lemme know. Like I said, I aint 2 gud wit machamatiks.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

I do not have a welder, nor do I know how to weld (makes sense) although I'd love to take classes if I wasn't at work all day. So all the fab work on this project will have to be done by someone else. And of course there are no fab shops or 4x4 shops in my area.

Fortunately I think I may have recruited the services of one of our senior welders at work to help me with a few things on this project. Namely, THESE!

-SOA
-Extending stock radius arms?????
-Sliders
-Bumpers

I'm sure the drop bracket gussets and SOA perches will be easy as cake. I am still unsure if I will go with Skyjacker RAs or extend my stockers. I'm probably going to hold off on the bumpers and sliders until I get the suspension finished. I have a general idea of what I want for a bumper, but I have to iron out the details. the first time I saw Michael's bumper I fell in love with it. I'd like to mimic the lines of his design. I also really like glfredrick's bumper on his old 92. I like how he mounted the bumper high and ran some tube between the headlights where the grille used to be. I have the same chopped up front end he had so I want to utilize all the extra space above the stock bumper line. More to ponder about.

Questions, comments, and flaming are welcome! First real paycheck is tomorrow so I'm going to be buying some jeep hubs and new gears soon!

 

[4x4junkie]

Just going by your pic, it looks like you could move that hanger back 2-3 inches before being forced to follow the frame's curvature, or having to modify the bracket itself. Another option, maybe you could move that hanger forward 3", then use a pair of 63" Chevy leafs, which would also result in your axle being 3" further back (the Chevy leafs are 6" longer from centerbolt to forward eye).

That article you linked above I didn't write, however 20" is definitely very possible on these suspensions, though you will get a goodly amount of positive camber going on at full droop if it's not limited using a limit cable like what I have, or limit straps (I would suggest the single cable setup so you'll still have the full amount of available travel when it's articulated which you won't get with separate straps. The single cable also "forces" the suspension to flex more very much like the effect you get across a straight axle too).

I know you said you weren't good with math, but not having any help from the suspension industry, I think this thread is worth paying some attention to:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291631&highlight=coil+ppi

I strongly suspect the coil you'll need for yours will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300PPI, and around 22" long for 6" lift (TJ coils are way too soft). I'd still recommend going through the numbers to make sure that's what you need for sure though.


I'm curious what measurements Stonecrusher needs. Nothing should be any different between any RBVs having the D35 axle...

Thanks for the new link! lots of good pictures and little snippets of info I haven't seen before. I've read lots of your tech articles on TRS and I will be following several of your write ups to the letter; I hope you don't mind haha I picked up early on in my Explorer Quest-O'-Knowledge that steering can make or break the ttb, so I'm going to make sure I get a proper setup worked out before I start driving this thing around.

Don't mind a bit. I wouldn't be putting such info out onto the 'net if it wasn't for the benefit of others.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

More helpful info, junkie, like always :biggthump

I also found cmhaah06's registry and jeez. we are building the same truck. Except his sounds like it's already built. haha. I hope he can provide some more useful information to this thread!

From his thread and reading around a bit more, I may end up switching directions a little bit with this build and go with 78-79 fullsize coils. Out of all the Heep coils I have seen, none of them look like they will be appropriate for my plans. The coils are just too soft. The highest rated springs I have found are 22" springs rated at 250 PPI and I still think that will be too low. I found (or rather, was directed to) FS springs made by Deaver that may just be Coil X. If they end up working out, that's one more thing taken care of before I can start buying parts!

Alsoooooo, thoughts on these longarms?

My options for RA's are the Fabtechs listed above, extended stockers, Duff arms, or used SJ arms. Since you can buy Duff arms by themselves and I've heard nothing but great things about them, I will probably end up going that way if I don't get the stock arms extended.

I've heard that certain drop brackets will NOT work with certain RA's if you mix and match brands. Any substance to this claim? I don't remember where I read it. :scratch:

Till then, Imma keep doin that workin thang and makin my paper. So I can turn around and blow it on this truck :roll:

 

[cmhaah06]

Lil info for you

Just take your time and keep reading. 4x4junkie is correct in stating the ex needs a slightly stiffer coil. I am using Deaver Super flex coils in my truck. They were made for a 79 F250 and are rated at 300lbs/in. They were extremely tall though,24" to be exact. I ended up cutting almost 4 inches off of them. They need to be massaged into the stock buckets, as the diameter of the coil is larger than a stock ex's coil, and are held in place by a ubolt I got at Kragen.

Keep asking questions and if you need anymore info let me know.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

CM, what did you do for the lower coil mount? Does the stock mount work with the FS coils? (by the way I was also looking at those and like the stats and price of them)

I was thinking of running these parts to accommodate FS coils:

Lower buckets

Upper
buckets or these if I'm feeling cheap

Wik- (Monty Python reference) I also like the idea of running 63 Chevys. Toyota guys seem to get pretty good flex out of them and I need a reason to hit up the junkyard anyway.

Also wik- I think I will start out with a universal winch mount and keep my stock bumper for the time being. I am removing more and more of the bumper, and soon there won't be any left! Then it will be time for a custom one.

Also also wik- Merely opinions here, should I get new wheels? I'd liiiiiike to go to a 14.5" wide tire but I'm not sure if my 8" wide wheels are up for it. 16x10s or 17x10s would be a nice upgrade. And they have to be black :smoke:

 

[4x4junkie]

Alsoooooo, thoughts on these longarms?

My options for RA's are the Fabtechs listed above, extended stockers, Duff arms, or used SJ arms. Since you can buy Duff arms by themselves and I've heard nothing but great things about them, I will probably end up going that way if I don't get the stock arms extended.

I've heard that certain drop brackets will NOT work with certain RA's if you mix and match brands. Any substance to this claim? I don't remember where I read it. :scratch:

Are those arms for a 4WD? (doesn't say in the link, and there's a reference to "I-beams")

As for pivot brackets (assuming those are the drop brackets you're referring to), there's no link between them and what radius arms you use. You may run into fitment issues if the arms themselves and the brackets that mount the arms to the frame are different brands though (usually due to small length differences in different brand arms).

Here's another coil mount that might be worth looking at too:
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Adjustable-coil-buckets_p_1183.html
Might eliminate the need for cutting your coils, stiffening them too much.

 

[Foxracin]

Better start stock up on front axles and hubs if you planning on wheeling it halfway hard on 35's or 36's. I got a whole pile of broke ones. Thats the only reason I am putting a solid axle under mine. I would rather have the ttb and make it work but its just not strong enough for me.

Take this into account with how your wheeling style is and your plans for the future. Would hate for you to spend all that money on it and then end up putting a solid axle under it like I am. lol

 

[Slowlyvverot]

Yes, I was referring to axle drop brackets.

Do they make different arms for 2wd and 4wd RBVs? I did not know that.

Fox, what ujoints were you running? and were you running full circle clips?

 

[Foxracin]

Stock u joints. I had problems with the caps popping off. Just tack welded the caps in place and it stopped that problem.

Never actually broke a u joint. The axles dont last long enough to try a better u joint anyway.

Just keep breaking axles. Have broke the inner axles and the outer stub axles.

Im also not the easiest on it.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

Yeah I've seen a video or two from URE this summer when you broke all those parts up front... you're definitely making the right decision going solid, given your driving style. No disrespect intended.

I'm going with a long-travel setup, so as to maximize traction by keeping as much tread on the rocks/trail as possible. More traction=less effort to get over obstacles=less chance of things breaking. And I'm hoping all the parts I'm going to throw on here will stand up to the abuse. I think they will, given my driving style, which is relatively conservative compared to how I've seen a lot of people drive their rigs.

and I mean hey who doesn't love a nice flexy suspension amirite?

 

[cmhaah06]

I bought thatfabguy's lower coil mounts from him when he went to a solid axle. The lower mounts you posted in the link will work, but they wont be able to bolt directly to the beam. The lower mounts I am using has a 1 1/2" raiser/foot with a large 9/16" hole in the middle for mounting to the beam. I will try to get u a pic soon. For the upper mount, I did use the stock bucket. It has been massaged a bit but it works. I was also considering using the new duff buckets, but decided to use the money somewhere else in my build.

 

[Slowlyvverot]

Life has just become a lot easier.

I discovered that TRS has a section where you can buy Skyjacker Class II components like rad arms and drop brackets individually. Durr. Did anyone else know about this?

 

[Foxracin]

I did.