Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[peterk9]

To me that's a red flag and it would certainly deter me from buying MKT. That member is also probably fortunate that the leak did not do more damage to the engine/turbo.

Peter, if I recall correctly your leasing your car, so if that's the case you are highly unlikely to encounter any of the problems discussed on this board. Also, with today's engineering and technology a consumer should expect almost any new vehicle to drive to the 100,000 mile mark with no major maintenance issues so long as routine maintenance is performed.

Yes, I lease my vehicles or as I prefer to call it, 'extended test drives'. The members on that site were quite surprised when I posted a link to this thread. You are right in that I likely won't encounter many of the issues posted in this forum since I only keep my vehicles 3 - 4 years and don't put much mileage on them either. I have 5400 miles on the MKT after 21.5 months. Have to gas up today. Last fill was Dec. 4th.

Peter

 

[NCStatePack]

To me that's a red flag and it would certainly deter me from buying MKT. That member is also probably fortunate that the leak did not do more damage to the engine/turbo.

Peter, if I recall correctly your leasing your car, so if that's the case you are highly unlikely to encounter any of the problems discussed on this board. Also, with today's engineering and technology a consumer should expect almost any new vehicle to drive to the 100,000 mile mark with no major maintenance issues so long as routine maintenance is performed.

This. If my fusion failed 1 thing at 100k miles I wouldn't be so down on Ford, but my car has failed numerous high dollar items since I bought it. Had I not bought the extended warranty I'd already be out an additional 5 or 6 grand. Perhaps I just got a bad one but the $2k water pump is icing on the cake, and I'd be a fool to take my chances on another $30,000 Ford. Just one man's opinion of course, so you don't have to like it

 

[NCStatePack]

Update for those interested...

Dealer quoted me about $2960 (holy sh**!) to change water pump and....

- Valve cover gaskets
- Intake manifold seal
- Crank seal
- Various fluids to be replaced when the engine is removed

I'm not sure that the above parts are even leaking, and I plan on asking them to show me the leak. I imagine the water pump replacement would be $2100 to start with, so the other 800 is all in the random gaskets. I question whether the labor should really be that high for the gaskets and seals since the engine will already be out of the car, but anyways.

What are you guys' thoughts on changing out all those other gaskets at this time? I'm not sold on those gaskets/seals actually leaking, since this fluid leak (coolant and oil) started at about the same time, but if they can show me the leak point then of course I'd change them too.

Also, at that price point I'm considering just buying a new engine. Ford's online catalog lists a new assembly at about $4000. Is that irrational, and do any of you know any better resource for buying a new engine than from the Ford dealer?

 

[peterk9]

I'm not familiar with the dismantling process but it might be that those items above may have to be removed and therefore would require new gaskets/seals when they are put back. Seals and gaskets are usually not reused.
Have you checked out any Ford Fusion forums for similar issues?

Peter

 

[NCStatePack]

I have, but this forum is the most active on this issue with the water pump, so I was hoping to get more feedback here.

The way the itemized repair cost looks, the gaskets are independent of the water pump fix (which makes sense to me). I would think that there would be little to no labor involved if you already had to expose the seals and gaskets to get to the timing chain/ water pump area. I'm about to go visit the dealer in person to review the repair list, because at this point I'm heavily considering a new engine. The parts for this fix are only $340 of the $2790, so I might as well pitch in the extra $1300 for a brand new everything.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

[sheltonfilms]

I have, but this forum is the most active on this issue with the water pump, so I was hoping to get more feedback here.

The way the itemized repair cost looks, the gaskets are independent of the water pump fix (which makes sense to me). I would think that there would be little to no labor involved if you already had to expose the seals and gaskets to get to the timing chain/ water pump area. I'm about to go visit the dealer in person to review the repair list, because at this point I'm heavily considering a new engine. The parts for this fix are only $340 of the $2790, so I might as well pitch in the extra $1300 for a brand new everything.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

The biggest deciding factor for me would be the warranty with a new engine.

 

[Junkmann2]

If you are planning on keeping the car, then I would go for the new engine. If you are going to be trading or selling it, then I would do just the repair. After reading about the costs involved with the water pump failures, I think that I wouldn't keep any Ford product, after the warranty ran out. I can see where this water pump issue might cause high mileage used Fords to become almost worthless on the used car market in the future. It is almost like a ticking time bomb inside the engine, and you have no idea when disaster is going to happen.

 

[dco43054]

Update for those interested...

Dealer quoted me about $2960 (holy sh**!) to change water pump and....

- Valve cover gaskets
- Intake manifold seal
- Crank seal
- Various fluids to be replaced when the engine is removed

I'm not sure that the above parts are even leaking, and I plan on asking them to show me the leak. I imagine the water pump replacement would be $2100 to start with, so the other 800 is all in the random gaskets. I question whether the labor should really be that high for the gaskets and seals since the engine will already be out of the car, but anyways.

What are you guys' thoughts on changing out all those other gaskets at this time? I'm not sold on those gaskets/seals actually leaking, since this fluid leak (coolant and oil) started at about the same time, but if they can show me the leak point then of course I'd change them too.

Also, at that price point I'm considering just buying a new engine. Ford's online catalog lists a new assembly at about $4000. Is that irrational, and do any of you know any better resource for buying a new engine than from the Ford dealer?

To get at water pump, it's often necessary to remove other parts, and you need the appropriate gaskets to put them back together.

As for replacing the whole engine - you will likely find the cost higher than just the cost of the assembly. There is a lot more disassembly and reassembly involved in replacing the engine vs just replacing the water pump.

 

[NCStatePack]

Thanks all for the input. I challenged the service advisor on the 22 hrs of labor, and what I believe happened is that they were going to charge me labor for the pump and the gaskets separately even though the gaskets and seal are exposed during the pump replacement procedure. They ended up taking 800ish off the initial quote and that aligned with my expectation going in, so I opted to pay for the repair. $2100 still hurts for a water pump but I'll live provided nothing else major fails in the next couple of years. Keeping my fingers crossed!

 

[Sixonemale]

Thanks all for the input. I challenged the service advisor on the 22 hrs of labor, and what I believe happened is that they were going to charge me labor for the pump and the gaskets separately even though the gaskets and seal are exposed during the pump replacement procedure. They ended up taking 800ish off the initial quote and that aligned with my expectation going in, so I opted to pay for the repair. $2100 still hurts for a water pump but I'll live provided nothing else major fails in the next couple of years. Keeping my fingers crossed!

That's a lot for a water pump any which way you look at it, all because of it's location/design. Unfortunately, I think Ford could potentially make quite a stream of revenue from this part or it's effect on the engine when it fails for some, unless it's designed to last 200k miles. I sure hope they have improved their turbos, because those too could potentially be costly in repairs when or if they fail.

I think this thread should be a "sticky thread" so that owners are aware of this issue and can keep better track or an eye on their cooling system.

 

[bigdude2468]

If you are planning on keeping the car, then I would go for the new engine. If you are going to be trading or selling it, then I would do just the repair. After reading about the costs involved with the water pump failures, I think that I wouldn't keep any Ford product, after the warranty ran out. I can see where this water pump issue might cause high mileage used Fords to become almost worthless on the used car market in the future. It is almost like a ticking time bomb inside the engine, and you have no idea when disaster is going to happen.

So with maybe three water pumps we know of our Ford Exp's are going to be "worthless" after the warranty expires, get a grip. This is NOT a pattern failure, there are hundreds of thousands of these engines on the road, many with hundreds of 1000's of miles on them. As far as I recall only one pump failure resulted in the engine being destroyed. We know little about that situation other than what the owner said and in this case the vehicle was purchased used. For all we know the vehicle was in an accident, had over heated or been badly neglected. The owner claimed the high temp light never came on but what would you expect him to say, he was trying to get Ford to pay for it under warranty.

Yea, paying $2200 + for a water pump sucks but is it any worse than paying the same for a transmission failure on a vehicle with 150,000 miles on it? I would bet there have been many more transmissions that have failed out of warranty than water pumps.

I will say this one more time. If you own a zero clearance engine you will likely pay close to $2000 for timing belts and water pump replacement over the same 150,000 miles. $2000 is $2000. The concern about Exp's being worthless is silly. Subaru's had a long long history of head gasket failure, this was a pattern failure. Guess what, Subaru's resale values never went to zero, they remained very popular,

 

[Sixonemale]

So with maybe three water pumps we know of our Ford Exp's are going to be "worthless" after the warranty expires, get a grip. This is NOT a pattern failure, there are hundreds of thousands of these engines on the road, many with hundreds of 1000's of miles on them. As far as I recall only one pump failure resulted in the engine being destroyed. We know little about that situation other than what the owner said and in this case the vehicle was purchased used. For all we know the vehicle was in an accident, had over heated or been badly neglected. The owner claimed the high temp light never came on but what would you expect him to say, he was trying to get Ford to pay for it under warranty.

I would like to know from owners how long their water pump has lasted on the 3.5L engines. Most water pumps are not designed to last the life of an engine.

Yea, paying $2200 + for a water pump sucks but is it any worse than paying the same for a transmission failure on a vehicle with 150,000 miles on it? I would bet there have been many more transmissions that have failed out of warranty than water pumps.

The transmission failing is binary and has no effect on other parts. The transmission in my 2002 Explorer failed at 157k miles and this occurred with the fluid and filter being changed more than required. The transmission on another Ford I owned had to be replaced at about 90k miles.

I will say this one more time. If you own a zero clearance engine you will likely pay close to $2000 for timing belts and water pump replacement over the same 150,000 miles. $2000 is $2000. The concern about Exp's being worthless is silly. Subaru's had a long long history of head gasket failure, this was a pattern failure. Guess what, Subaru's resale values never went to zero, they remained very popular,

I own a Toyota/Lexus 4.3L interference engine and am currently going to have a timing belt kit done on the vehicle. The kit includes a timing and drive belt, water pump, all three pulleys, thermostat, etc., which will cost about $800. More importantly than the cost is peace of mind of knowing that since my wife primarily drives this car it's good to go for another 90,000 or so miles without catastrophic problems or cost.

 

[peterk9]

I would like to know from owners how long their water pump has lasted on the 3.5L engines. Most water pumps are not designed to last the life of an engine.

If you are referring strictly to the 3.5L engine in the 5th generation Explorer you will likely have to wait quite a few years to accumulate any serious number of negative responses since that engine has only been in the Explorer since 2011. The 3.5L Ecoboost in my Lincoln MKT I believe is the same one that is in the Sport and Platinum. There has been one reported water pump failure (leaking) on a 2010 MKT at 80k miles in that forum.
What you really need is access to some kind of 'repair frequency' database.

Peter

 

[Junkmann2]

So with maybe three water pumps we know of our Ford Exp's are going to be "worthless" after the warranty expires, get a grip. This is NOT a pattern failure, there are hundreds of thousands of these engines on the road, many with hundreds of 1000's of miles on them. As far as I recall only one pump failure resulted in the engine being destroyed. We know little about that situation other than what the owner said and in this case the vehicle was purchased used. For all we know the vehicle was in an accident, had over heated or been badly neglected. The owner claimed the high temp light never came on but what would you expect him to say, he was trying to get Ford to pay for it under warranty.

Yea, paying $2200 + for a water pump sucks but is it any worse than paying the same for a transmission failure on a vehicle with 150,000 miles on it? I would bet there have been many more transmissions that have failed out of warranty than water pumps. Whether this is going to be a "
pattern failure" in the future, we will only know after these cars start accumulating mileage. Also, please keep in mind that the membership on these forums is only a small sampling of the total ownership of 5th generation Ford Explorers. It will take a much larger sampling to know if this turns out to be a major defect that will influence resale prices.
I will say this one more time. If you own a zero clearance engine you will likely pay close to $2000 for timing belts and water pump replacement over the same 150,000 miles. $2000 is $2000. The concern about Exp's being worthless is silly. Subaru's had a long long history of head gasket failure, this was a pattern failure. Guess what, Subaru's resale values never went to zero, they remained very popular,

If you are going to quote my words, please be accurate. Specifically, what I have said was

I can see where this water pump issue might cause high mileage used Fords to become almost worthless on the used car market in the future.

I have highlighted to two most important words in my original post. Most people realize that high mileage cars don't sell for anywhere near what low or average mileage cars sell for. People purchasing used cars look at future expenses of repairs, and the frequency of those repairs. If someone were considering a 5th generation Explorer, with the possibility of an expensive water pump replacement, that cost is part of determining the vehicles actual worth. This is why most new car dealerships don't sell high mileage used cars.

 

[bigdude2468]

With three water pumps I am sure that will scare away folks looking at buying a high mileage vehicle. If in fact this engine has been is service since 2010 that is plenty of history.

 

[NCStatePack]

One last update for everyone. When changing the pump the mechanic found oil in the coolant line, so it needed to be flushed and cleaned with simple green for about $350. Though they say there was no trace of water in the oil, I don't have high confidence that it didn't get in there on some level so I guess I'll cross my fingers.


Also, FWIW in the fusion forums there are a handful of other water pump claims on the 3.5, all at low mileage (<110k or so). I get that it's a low percentage failure for the engine, but it can be a real nut kicker when a common wear item fails this early and for this much money.

 

[gdruss]

I throw my 2 cents in. I bought a 2014 XLT last month. This is my 7th Ford. 97 Windstar, 2000 Windstar, 2000 Expedition, 2000 Taurus, 2005 Expedition, 2009 F150, 2010 Fusion, Supercrew 4x4 Never had an issue with any of them. I put 95k on the Fusion in 2.5 years without any issues. I went from a 2010 BMW 328xi to this Explorer. The fuel pressure regulator went out on the 328 at 117k. It is integrated into the fuel tank, so to replace the regulator you have to replace the fuel tank at $2100 parts and labor. I did buy the ESP Premium Plan on my Explorer. I usually do my own maintenance and repairs, but I have less and less time right now to deal with it. I am enjoying the Explorer and it's performed great in a couple of drives over the Rockies in heavy snow storms.

 

[bigdude2468]

FWIW I did a search of Ford 3.5 liter water pump failures and not much pops up. A recent post was a 2008 Edge but I can't get too excited about a eight year old vehicle. Just hard for me to get excited when there so few general posts about this particular issue. I hdid not know the internal water pump design has been around as long as it has. As I said before, Google Subaru head gaskets, there is a pattern failure.

 

[Sixonemale]

FWIW I did a search of Ford 3.5 liter water pump failures and not much pops up. A recent post was a 2008 Edge but I can't get too excited about a eight year old vehicle. Just hard for me to get excited when there so few general posts about this particular issue. I hdid not know the internal water pump design has been around as long as it has. As I said before, Google Subaru head gaskets, there is a pattern failure.

What we see and read on this board are generally posts from males that take care and look after their vehicles. What we don't have is true sample of overall population that owns these vehicles, more specifically we are missing a lot of female owners. Also, those who lease or sell these vehicles before 90,000 miles or so, will probably never see this issue, with the exception of a few cases which we have read about. With that said, it will be interesting to see how both the water pumps and turbos perform over time, especially once the vehicles get into the 125,000 mile plus category. My bet is that you will hear much more about both of these components.

 

[bigdude2468]

Understood but if you don't think pattern failures show on the Interweb you are not paying attention. Google Toyota engine sludge or the Subaru head gasket threads, or Chrysler transmissions. In fact if there is a pattern failure you will usually find some law firm that wants to get a piece of the action.

Back to the water pump. Does anyone know how long Ford has been using the internal water pump design on the 3.5 liter engine? I stumbled across the 2008 owner that said they had the issue with a 3.5 liter. If this is a new design that is one thing but in fact if this design has been around for 5+ years that means there are many high mileage vehicles that would be showing this problem if in fact it is a pattern failure.