2nd Gen Coil Sprung SAS Idea Thread

TheDangerRanger · January 31, 2003

Originally posted by Hotweels
...i cant for the life of me see the 4.0 V6 breaking that shaft unless yer doing something crazy...

Let me drive it, I'll show you how

I learned that stock 44 axle shafts and new u-joint's last all of 3.164564564984 min's at full throttle turning 38's.

That was with a stock 4.0/5spd/1354/5.43's locked f&r.

I agree with what was said about run the stock parts till it breaks, then upgrade. Most won't need anymore... but for the rest who've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt... bust out your wallet.

CoryL · January 31, 2003

Originally posted by taxxman2k
OK so how does caster affect a 4x4? I can only find info on race cars. What is recomended? How dow these run stock? I would like these to mount way up at the frame, would a solution be to make new radious arms with a different setup?

Caster will effect your steering. Too much caster and it will point your steering knuckles down towards the ground, making steering more difficult.

Ideally you would want your steering knuckles just pointed down slightly past parallel with the ground.

To do this and keep your radius arm mounts up high you can get the high degree c-bushings or cut and turn the knuckles on the axle.

New radius arms using the c-bushings for a better angle would be VERY difficult to make yourself.

TheDangerRanger · January 31, 2003

Originally posted by taxxman2k
OK so how does caster affect a 4x4? I can only find info on race cars. What is recomended? How dow these run stock? I would like these to mount way up at the frame, would a solution be to make new radious arms with a different setup?

Caster is an imaginary line between the upper and lower ball joints in a knuckle of a front suspension.

Caster has a lot to do with a 4x. Caster is what gives a vehicle directional stability. It's what makes the steering wheel *want* to return to center without driver input. It's the main factor that keeps any vehicle from *wandering* down the road. So when a 4x is lifted and running big tires and the caster is thrown way off it makes it a basket case on the pavement.

Most 4x guys say 6-8 degrees of caster is good. That's meaning the upper ball joint is leaning toward the rear of a vehicle, where the lower would be leaning forward.

taxx · February 3, 2003

I was wondering, would it be possible to use tubing and heim joints or something to make the radious arms? Or is the EB stock setup a better plan of action. I don't want to have to drop the mounts, I want them up at the frame. With the stock for flex I could wrist them faily easy I think. I was wondering though with the stock radious arms they mount to the axle and don't mover, right? WOuld you be able to make one that swivels or does that throw off camber? COil sprung Jeeps have a different style radious arm, is there something else in there?

taxx · February 3, 2003

somehting like this?

taxx · February 3, 2003

again but without that Y portion , just one bar to the axle. (excuse my incompitence, just trying to understand all this now.)

taxx · February 3, 2003

Well I think I have answered my own questions. The EB stock setup works well. The caster is adjusted with the c-clips. As for the readious arms being mounted to the frame I should be set. Wristing them would increase flex, if there is too much angle with the stock arms I could extend them 12". But it looks like that setup is the easiest and the best.

Now should I make my own radious arm mounts or buy some?

taxx · February 3, 2003

What about changing to a heim joint on the RA like this duff RA?

RFR2212 · February 3, 2003

Maybe it's me...

Why not just get some built from scratch while were lookin at all the heim stuff?

Taken from here: Dead Link Removed

taxx · February 3, 2003

Brakes - revisited:

the factory setup is an individual line for each wheel. If I use the axle's setup with one line that then seperates to the two front wheels do I just tap into that with one of the fronts and seal the other off or do I Y them both into it?

SteveVB · February 3, 2003

Dave that second pic you posted has the same two mounting points to the axle and two points to the frame- the four link set up, where the first is a three link with no way to adjust the caster.

If I ever do a sas and there is clearance I would make it like your first pic and the heim joint pic posted. That first pic of yours has no adjustment, I would add an adjustment at the link that dies on the "main" control arm just like the pic RFR posted. This is basically the same a the "long arm" set ups that the Jeep family of vehicles use. It is basically the same as the EB style set up with the end of the radius arm spread farther apart at the axle. - I like the single rear mount - with a "jonny joint" or teraflex type screw you get the twist, and the added smaller control arm controls wrap and can be adjusted for camber tuning and increased axle movement, while keeping the axle in place.

I would think that the longer arms that you can make from tubing is a better idea than using "stock" shorter rods, esp when you start running bigger (35" plus) tires.

The easiest will be the EB "c bushed " axles, but I think the long arm Jeep designs are updated versions- they all do the same things, the EB design is 40 years old, and the Jeep is 20 years old and still used. They both work, and work well. I just keep comming down on the side of the 3 or 4 link radius arms, rather than relying on the c bushing ofr flexibility and location of the axle.On a street vehicle the 4 link would be a better driver than the c bushed axle - allowing of rmore adjustability and reliability

I am by no means a fabricator but just some observations and... a little future planning

taxx · February 3, 2003

Re: Maybe it's me...

Originally posted by RFR2212
Why not just get some built from scratch while were lookin at all the heim stuff?

Taken from here: Dead Link Removed

Yeah but if I already have the stock radius arms to work with, I would think they could be modified pretty well, woulnd't you?

taxx · February 3, 2003

SO if you make one like in the pic RFR posted put a threaded heim joint on it and that way camber can be adjusted much easier than puting in new c-bushings? What about wristing it. I read a lot of conflicting arguments on that, some say long arms don't need wristing and others say they do, but if it has a heim at the end mounted to the frame I shouldn't need wristing either way.

I want to make the best decisions here and go the way that will keep me happiest the longest, however I am doing all myself and I am by no means a fabricator either, some things I can make, such as simple mounting brackets but that pic posted by RFR is above my skill level and probably out of my budget range. What would be the real differences between that and the traditional C style with a heim joint at the frame and wristed at the axle?

taxx · February 3, 2003

If I do four link would it eliminate the need for the track bar? I am thinking that might make things a little easier, buy some tubing and then get some heim joints from Cory and make a four link suspension? I would think I could get tons of flex out of it. Are there any considerations of spacing and such for those radious arms if you have one running the top of the axle and one running the rear? Also which on should be shorter? I assume the top?

Sorry guys my excitement is overcoming me and my brain is running in overtime, I have spent a lot of time running searches at pirate.

CoryL · February 3, 2003

Dave,

It is good that you are asking questions, but you REALLY need to research suspension design, especially if the rig will see street miles.

I'll try to break it down as best I can in the simplest of terms and then point you where you need to go for more reading.

Let's start from simplest and make our way to most complex. This also follows the path of cheapest to most expensive.

Simplest:

1) Stock EB arms with bushings. Strong, proven, and will work well.

2) Stock EB passengerside arm wristed (you only wrist one). Strong, proven, and will work a lot better then stock.

3) Custom extended arm. Made popular before wristing became mainstream. Should allow for the same flex as a wristed stock arm.

4) Custom arms like I am running in the pics that Pete posted. Upper link on passenger side can be added for street use and removed for trail use. Removing it transforms it into the same principle as a wristed arm.

5) Custom 3 (upper wishbone), 4, 5, or 7 link. Get as crazy as you want. The more complex the link system, the more expensive and more you have to know about it. A true 4-link will be A LOT harder to properly build than setting up the radius arms, but the benefits can be better. This setup would benefit the competitor more than the average wheeler.

Something I would avoid would be getting a female heim joint and threading it onto the end of the stock arm. Don't think it will last long.

Personally I would suggest using the stock radius arm with trac-bar setup and to wrist the passengerside arm. It will be the easiest and will provide the best flex for the least amount of money.

As for further reading...

Go to http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ and do a search for "God of Suspension" thread by CalPolyStud. It is long, difficult to read if you are unfamiliar with terms like anti-squat and roll-axis, but the theory is all solid.

Let me know what I can help you with.

JoshC · February 3, 2003

That did clear up things for me too Cory. Was your number 4 what you had planned for me? I hope so anyways!!

Happy trails!!

CoryL · February 3, 2003

Originally posted by JoshC
That did clear up things for me too Cory. Was your number 4 what you had planned for me? I hope so anyways!!

Happy trails!!

Similar, but different!

Muskrat · February 3, 2003

I went to the local 4wd shop, and was asking about getting 2 hiems for my trac bar, the guy there told me that Heims have a tendancy to wear out with a lot of street use

taxx · February 3, 2003

Cory thanks. Yes I have started reading the god thread today. Don't get me wrong, I am not posting to be a PITA newbie, it helps me thing, as you can see I answered a couple of my questions, maybe I should invest in a sctratch piece of paper though instead of wasting space here

.....

If I use a heim joint it would not be female. I would make an adapter out of tubing and proly lengthen the RA at the same time.

EDIT: read more of that thread it is almost a waste of time just to filter through the BS and flaming. Gues I'll just have to learn by trial and error. ANd seeing other pics.

taxx · February 3, 2003

Personally I would suggest using the stock radius arm with trac-bar setup and to wrist the passengerside arm. It will be the easiest and will provide the best flex for the least amount of money.

That sounds as though it would be my best route, should flex great (atleast as good as my rear) and be a great first SAS for me. THen as I learn more and see more rigs I can experiment down the road, but I still want to drive on the road and according to others it is pretty streetable. But I still wonder if using heims in the rear mounts would be better than using the stock bushing setup....... I would put some tube in the end of the arm and then thread a male heim into that.

2nd Gen Coil Sprung SAS Idea Thread

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