i need a supercharging plan..

[Jakee]

Jake there are many different kinds of 300rwhp. You can't just cookie-cutter your advice based only upon your personal preferences. While the turbo is the more efficient way to make that power it is not the type of power this guy is looking for. If you are going to offer help then I suggest that you actually ask the proper questions to see what the vehicle owner's goals AND intended uses are first. Otherwise you are just shooting from the hip.

With the proper supporting components the 4.0 SOHC V6 can see pretty damn close to 300rwhp on an Eaton M90.

I've talked with this guy in PM several different times, your majesty.

 

[rocket 5979]

A turbo can help low end torque. Prefferably a "small" for the applicaton. A single large T3 would spool befroe max torque and pound for pound you will see more power improvment than a blower as your not robbing the crank of power. You could even strap on a Turbocoupe T3 wit ha .68AR housing and it would spool fast and support at least 5-6 psi.

Even though the turbo configuration would spool faster than a normally sized turbo setup for a combo like this, it is not going to give anywhere near the torque level in the range that this guy needs when compared to a positive displacement blower like the Eaton Roots M90. For towing this guy need off-the-line torque not mid-range torque. Whether a turbo, roots blower, twin screw blower, or centri blower is better will totally depend on the goals and intended use of the vehicle. I am obviously a lover of turbocharged vehicles but I also know that in certain given situations there are better options out there. Being that this guy said he wants to tow with the vehicle and have off the line "power" the M90 would fit the bill better.

 

[rocket 5979]

I've talked with this guy in PM several different times, your majesty.

Glad to hear it.

 

[lifted4.0]

the help is so far great!

but does anyone have any advice on specific parts? what cams i should use if i choose to cam it and such...pistons (know there is supersix..any others?), ect.

thanks!

 

[turbo cat]

Even though the turbo configuration would spool faster than a normally sized turbo setup for a combo like this, it is not going to give anywhere near the torque level in the range that this guy needs when compared to a positive displacement blower like the Eaton Roots M90. For towing this guy need off-the-line torque not mid-range torque. Whether a turbo, roots blower, twin screw blower, or centri blower is better will totally depend on the goals and intended use of the vehicle. I am obviously a lover of turbocharged vehicles but I also know that in certain given situations there are better options out there. Being that this guy said he wants to tow with the vehicle and have off the line "power" the M90 would fit the bill better.

my turbo 4.0 does have off the line power depending on the gear im i see full boost before 2K. I threw a turbo on my truck stricly because it was a turd hauling loads and trying to get up a hill, passing.....My goal with turbocharging my 4.0 was and is torque and wicked fast response.

 

[rocket 5979]

my turbo 4.0 does have off the line power depending on the gear im i see full boost before 2K. I threw a turbo on my truck stricly because it was a turd hauling loads and trying to get up a hill, passing.....My goal with turbocharging my 4.0 was and is torque and wicked fast response.

I don't want to muddle this guys thread up with our turbo vs roots supercharger discussion but do you really think that a turbo is the best route for this guy to go? You said it yourself, "depending on the gear im i see full boost before 2K." With a roots he will see full boost pretty much instantaneously right when he nails the pedal regardless of what gear he is in. I am just a "little" experienced with turbo vehicles and know that even when you run a much smaller turbo so that it spools very fast it still will not have the instant torque response that a roots will have. That is the disadvantage of it not being directly attached to the crankshaft as well as being a variable displacement type of compressor.

the help is so far great!

but does anyone have any advice on specific parts? what cams i should use if i choose to cam it and such...pistons (know there is supersix..any others?), ect.

thanks!

While I am sure there are other offerings out there it seems that Supersix is one of the more popular places offering the components that you desire. Unless you find someone else that you trust more to do your building it might be best just to go with them. Some of the other guys that are posting in here may know of some other places offering built 4.0 SOHC engine's, heads, cams and such but I cannot recall any.

 

[Jakee]

Honestly, if you're going the M90 route, then don't worry about the cams or porting the heads. I believe porting the heads may hurt you more than anything. The boost will naturally drop because there will be less restriction. This is good to a point but you’ll then have to run a smaller pulley to raise the boost. This will start to max the charger out, resulting in a “hotter” charge. This will restrict the amount of timing you can run, and your tuner will probably richen up the air-fuel mixture for safety sake. It’s a vicious circle that I’m afraid you’ll get yourself in.

I think the best thing if running the M90 will be a stock 4.0 and good tuning. I did tell you that if you’re building the engine then go ahead with forged pistons. I would, just for added insurance.

--- The good thing about the M90 is you’ll be able to install this thing quickly. However, I just don’t feel right about not letting you know - you’ll more than likely not see the 300 RWHP level.

So again, keep the stock cams.

 

[lifted4.0]

but the thing is, there are people running the m90 that are well over 300 as well...some blue 02ish on youtube running a m62 pushes 333 hp and like 370tq and he would just have a 38 shot of nos more than i would have on my engine (and the charger would be different), and i would try to put in a after cooler, which would probably be better than his meth injection.

and also on rangerpowersports, i think it was, there was a ranger just running a m112...and i think thats about it, not other major supporting mods, and he was getting 297 whp..and i think about 8-9 psi...GIVEN THAT may be a bigger/better charger...still the charing route

the only problem with not doing cams and such is...i feel like if im gonna rebuild the engine, im gonna only go in once, soo if i dont get anywhere near 300...which i ABSOLUTALLY will not without anything else...(only like 230 with just the charger...) then i am gonna wanna do something else to it...soo why not just do the mods while im in there?...

 

[rocket 5979]

Honestly, if you're going the M90 route, then don't worry about the cams or porting the heads. I believe porting the heads may hurt you more than anything. The boost will naturally drop because there will be less restriction. This is good to a point but you’ll then have to run a smaller pulley to raise the boost. This will start to max the charger out, resulting in a “hotter” charge.

Jake while you are correct that it will not be good to overspin the blower the problem will not be the result of hotter aircharge in the example given above. The chargers thermal efficiency range is based upon boost (pressure differential) rather than rotational speed of the rotors. With that said, the chargers overall maxx range is based upon the bearings, gears, and rotors being able to take those sorts of rotational speeds in addition to thermal efficiency. In a given environment if I have a compressor and I increase boost by 5 psi (good easy example) then it will net a given proportional increase in air temperature. So in an IC application say I want to make 250rwhp on a Ford Focus. For example purposes we will say that it takes 5 psi to do that on an Eaton. When I port the heads and do blower cams now my read boost drops down to 3 psi while maybe making a little more horsepower due to cooler IAT's and a little more spark advance. Even though I am still running the same pulley and still turning the rotors the same speed as I was before, my boost still dropped which means that the pressure differential between atmosphere and manifold did too. This means that the IAT's will drop also because the aircharge is not being compressed as much. Now when you repulley to again see 5 psi of boost you will make much more power now then on the original 5 psi boost. You already know this. But what you may not know is that when you are back to 5 psi boost, even though making allot more power due to ported heads and blower cams you are still seeing the same amount of pressure differential with this new 5 psi as the old 5 psi which means your aircharge temperature will be the same, or very similar. Even though you are spinning the blower faster to make that "new" 5 psi you are still encountering the same pressure differential which mean that the air is being compressed the same amount as before which will result in similar IAT's as before too. A very wordy explanation but I hope those that are reading this will get what I mean. Changing cams and ported heads raises VE (volumetric efficiency) which in turn allows more airflow to enter the manifold before encountering a given pressure differential in a boosted application. I had a hard time understanding the physics of how all this thermodynamic stuff worked until I read up on exactly how refrigeration systems work to chill the air in their systems. Once I figured out how that worked the application of the physics to a blower on a vehicle are no different.

I think the best thing if running the M90 will be a stock 4.0 and good tuning. I did tell you that if you’re building the engine then go ahead with forged pistons. I would, just for added insurance.

I agree. If you are going to pay to have it built then might as well put the good stuff in there.

The good thing about the M90 is you’ll be able to install this thing quickly. However, I just don’t feel right about not letting you know - you’ll more than likely not see the 300 RWHP level.

So again, keep the stock cams.

He will be able to get DAMN close to 300rwhp (right around 290-295rwhp w/ M5 tranny) if he uses the right components. I have seen it before with Eaton M90 boosted 4.0 SOHC engines. Most of those Ranger Powersports guys didn't hit that figure because they didn't do all of the supporting mods they could have. If you just bolt the supercharger itself on then you will not hit that power figure. Do all the supporting mods and you will get pretty damn close.

 

[rocket 5979]

soo why not just do the mods while im in there?...

It sounds like you are pretty serious with this build. Since that is the case and you are looking for the power then why not do a blower cam in it. More power on less boost. I must admit that is getting pretty serious for a towing vehicle but we all have our unique uses for our vehicles.

 

[turboexplorer]

Jake while you are correct that it will not be good to overspin the blower the problem will not be the result of hotter aircharge in the example given above. The chargers thermal efficiency range is based upon boost (pressure differential) rather than rotational speed of the rotors. With that said, the chargers overall maxx range is based upon the bearings, gears, and rotors being able to take those sorts of rotational speeds in addition to thermal efficiency. In a given environment if I have a compressor and I increase boost by 5 psi (good easy example) then it will net a given proportional increase in air temperature. So in an IC application say I want to make 250rwhp on a Ford Focus. For example purposes we will say that it takes 5 psi to do that on an Eaton. When I port the heads and do blower cams now my read boost drops down to 3 psi while maybe making a little more horsepower due to cooler IAT's and a little more spark advance. Even though I am still running the same pulley and still turning the rotors the same speed as I was before, my boost still dropped which means that the pressure differential between atmosphere and manifold did too. This means that the IAT's will drop also because the aircharge is not being compressed as much. Now when you repulley to again see 5 psi of boost you will make much more power now then on the original 5 psi boost. You already know this. But what you may not know is that when you are back to 5 psi boost, even though making allot more power due to ported heads and blower cams you are still seeing the same amount of pressure differential with this new 5 psi as the old 5 psi which means your aircharge temperature will be the same, or very similar. Even though you are spinning the blower faster to make that "new" 5 psi you are still encountering the same pressure differential which mean that the air is being compressed the same amount as before which will result in similar IAT's as before too. A very wordy explanation but I hope those that are reading this will get what I mean. Changing cams and ported heads raises VE (volumetric efficiency) which in turn allows more airflow to enter the manifold before encountering a given pressure differential in a boosted application. I had a hard time understanding the physics of how all this thermodynamic stuff worked until I read up on exactly how refrigeration systems work to chill the air in their systems. Once I figured out how that worked the application of the physics to a blower on a vehicle are no different.

That makes a lot of sense actually

 

[Blacksheep Josh]

I'm not to familiar with supercharging or turbocharging... but keep some money set aside so when you do have it, you can buy a XCAL Tuner, and a tune from James with it. From what I hear here (couldn't resist!), the X Cal tuner wakes the engine up tremendously, and is almost a must for any serious build.

 

[Jakee]

but the thing is, there are people running the m90 that are well over 300 as well...some blue 02ish on youtube running a m62 pushes 333 hp and like 370tq and he would just have a 38 shot of nos more than i would have on my engine (and the charger would be different), and i would try to put in a after cooler, which would probably be better than his meth injection.

and also on rangerpowersports, i think it was, there was a ranger just running a m112...and i think thats about it, not other major supporting mods, and he was getting 297 whp..and i think about 8-9 psi...GIVEN THAT may be a bigger/better charger...still the charing route

the only problem with not doing cams and such is...i feel like if im gonna rebuild the engine, im gonna only go in once, soo if i dont get anywhere near 300...which i ABSOLUTALLY will not without anything else...(only like 230 with just the charger...) then i am gonna wanna do something else to it...soo why not just do the mods while im in there?...

Yes, that guy hangs out on the rangerpowersport forum and the results from his x-charger set-up are quit impressive. The thing is, he's running a shot of nitrous too. The trick here is this cools the air charge so now you can tune the thing different. The tuner on this ride is Doug, a guy that use to hang out here, and I know he spent alot of time tuning it.

Please consider - I'm not trying to be negative here; just realistic.

Rocket - Very good post - and if anyone knows a roots type blower, it's you. One problem here is the 4.0 SOHC doesn't have a bunch of choices when it comes to cams. This is something to consider.

I think lifted4.0 is asking us for a direct plan with a parts list. Who is willing to do this for him?



There is a guy named basa820 over at the rangerpowersport forum. He has done everything you are thinking about doing. He never got the truck running right and gave up on the project. You may want to talk with him a little and get his take on this.

 

[Jakee]

RP Caster supercharger kit – $1595.000

This kit includes the following parts:
Manifold Assemble - (mounts supercharger to the heads)
Intake Plenum - (supercharger inlet to the throttle body)
Throttle Body Spacer - (mounts between intake plenum and throttle body)
EGR Extension Tube - (extends egr tube from original location to the new)
Throttle Cable Mount - (relocates accelerator cable to the new location)
Bypass Valve - (equalizes pressure on both sides of supercharger when boost is not needed.
Vacuum Tube - (pcv connection from drivers valve cover to throttle body)
Serpentine Belt - (replaces factory belt)
Electric Wire - (to extend wire to idle bypass valve)
Air Duct Hose - (connects throttle body to air inlet tube)
Mounting Bracket - (to support egr vacuum control)
Fuel Rail Kit - (includes 2-5/8" ID Fuel Rails, Fuel Block, AN-8 Connectors and Hoses)
Misc - (gasket material, silicone gasket sealant, lock-tite, all nuts bolts washers to mount all item's listed above )
This manifold has been installed in my 2002 Ford Ranger 4.0 SOHC Super Cab, but should be compatable with all the SOHC engines.
The bypass allows the engine to be under boost when needed, and allows non-boost for low speed and cruise.
Using the (standard) pully the Supercharger generates up to 5 1/2 lbs of boost on demand.
Manifold and Intake Plenum are Powdercoated the color "Wrinkle Black".
This is a second generation design, that will allow additional performance modifications.

MAF meter – $125.00 to $350.00 (Either a lightning MAF, or a SCT BA type meter [You should follow your tuners advice on this. What ever he thinks is the best for him to tune your truck is what you should get.])

M90 supercharger - $400.00

Injectors – $350.00 (Because you’ll be shooting for a higher HP range, and you’ll be doing engine work, you’ll need to upgrade the injectors to a min of 30LB per hour. You could go with 42LB per hour just because.)

Fuel Pump - $125.00 (Walbro GSXXX)

Custom CAI tube – $50.00 to $150.00 [Material only] *Add more for labor (you’ll need to replace the flex tubing supplied with the RP caster kit with a metal version.)

Forged Pistons - $775.00 (This price is from supersixmotorsports.) We have a problem – the only compression ratio available is an 8:5:1. Another option is to do a custom set of pistons from the weisco website. There are others to. I believe a good compression ratio would be 9:1:1 **up for debate here.

Machine shop work - $350.00 to $650.00 (big time guestimate here)

Special tools you’ll need to rebuild the 4.0 SOHC - $150.00 to $250.00 (big time guestimate)

Tuning fund – $500.00 (I don’t think you’ll find anyone willing to tune this remotely so you might want to think about this right now)

So far, and If I haven’t left anything out, you’re at $ 4295.00

Again, I cannot gauruntee you'll be at the 300HP level and this is where I can't help but let you know that you can take a STOCK 4.0 SOHC, throw a turbo on it, and know for sure you'll be over 300 HP. Not to mention cheaper. The catch is the install is going to take a while being it's all custom work.

 

[lifted4.0]

whats the difference between a blower cam and a performance cam i guess?

with a blower cam you can get the same power on less boost than the performance cam at higher boost?

i think the blue ranger without the nitrous was making 290+ to the wheel (he did a before/after deal)

im not really looking for a parts list..more of a guide to where i can find some quality parts, i know in the general range what i need, but dont know what will get the best results...such as this blower cam/performance (i dont know if they are different, but you said blower, soo is that different than _____ cams or ____ cams)


i guess you could say im "serious" about this built...its kinda a supporting tangible product for my graduation challenge for high school, and i have all winter to build el engine..(not much time, do basketball and such..) but i just wanna do it right...i could probably swap the pistons in like 1/5 the time i wanna take for the engine build...i wanna learn a lot during this process to, have a VERY knowledgable friend supervising persay..


and as for saving money for tuners and such, yaa i need to do that, but i dont wanna say money is not a object, DEFINATELY IS, but i am a teenager..so i "shouldnt" know how to manage my money, but i feel that i am well beyond my years in business and capital knowledge...(that doesnt justify this huge expense) but you get the picture i hope...

there was something else i was gonna say on that subject...but ya!! great information coming around, and hopefully doesnt stop here!

thanks much

 

[Jakee]

I've lead you as far as I can, and hopefully, this will be a good start for you. The rest of the research, you'll have to do yourself or consider the other opinions here, but I think you've got a good start with this info.

The other guys here may be willing to help you more, but just like anything, you'll learn more if we lead you on where to go, and you do the rest.

---Last thing. You've said, "this guy makes 290 with only these mods", and your way of thinking is your going to do more. The only advice I can give you here is it is possible to take 1 step forward, and 2 steps backwards while modding. In other words, some mods can actually hurt you, and that is why I say porting the heads may hurt you. Talk to Basa820 on this because he has done it. Blower cams are ground different to take advantage. Contact your cam grinder on this. (Supersix will be the first contact)

 

[lifted4.0]

wow thanks for that post jake, that was around the price i was looking at..i was gathering together ~3500, but im sure i left some stuff out of that


for some reason, i cant post on RPS....when i click post reply, it says

"lifted4.0, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

anyone know something about this, im registered and such..hence it says lifted4.0, you do not..blah blah but maybe i didnt activate something?

 

[turbo cat]

If you just leave the motor as is and try fored induction you may be more sucessful. The 4.0 can take boost and if its tuned correctly you could be on your way in no time. If your planning to do a full motor build.....it may never get done and youll be working on it rather than driving it. if it aint broke dont fix it. You have a pefectly good 4.0 just keep the boost low and tuned well abnd keeping it alive woulnt be a problem. i think if you dig in to far you may be over your head and the project will not be ready for show and tell. The money that your going to dump into the motor could be spent better elsewhere. The fuel system...pump, fpr, lines, filter, injectors, and tuning like a sct xcalibrator would be a great support system for any type of blower.

Also as far as blower vs turbo goes. There are pros and cons on both sides. A blower will rob the crank of power which will actually decrease MPG even when not in boost. A turbo can be a little harder to tune some times due to the load sensitive nature. A blower relys on rpms to build boost so its more of a steady rate...a turbo needs engine load...(resistance=cylinder pressure and heat). A turbocharger can also elevate EGT which can reduce component life depending on the setup. Lb for Lb a turbo will make more power since the turbo is just using wasted exhaust energy. There are a few more things to think about.

however also like i said boost comes on a different rpms depending on the gearof course has to do with load. But if were talking about towing a car the 3000lb car will put ALOT of load on the truck which will actually spool the turbo sooner. If sized correctly it could spool like a roots. I know that when I hauled a 450ish lb 4.6L in the back of my exploder the turbo came alive even sooner.

 

[Jakee]

Turbo Cat reminded me of the fuel pump. I added it to the list.

 

[rocket 5979]

Yes, that guy hangs out on the rangerpowersport forum and the results from his x-charger set-up are quit impressive. The thing is, he's running a shot of nitrous too. The trick here is this cools the air charge so now you can tune the thing different. The tuner on this ride is Doug, a guy that use to hang out here, and I know he spent alot of time tuning it.

Jake, Robert made 295rwhp off the spray. However, he was on methanol injection though which does help allot. Still a much safer way to compliment the roots power than what spraying nitrous would be.

One problem here is the 4.0 SOHC doesn't have a bunch of choices when it comes to cams. This is something to consider.

I got curious and took a look around at the various 4.0 V6 offerings for cams to see if there have been any new offerings since I checked last year. There are not allot of offerings out there. I looked all around and didn't find as much as I hoped would be out there for you sixer guys. I did see that Morana and Supersix both have some different offerings.

Morana: Offering a 4.3 SOHC Stroker motor (cast crank, forged rods, forged pistons), cams...

Supersix: Offering a 4.0 SOHC built (cast stocker crank, stock race prepped rods, forged pistons), cams, ported heads, forged alum rods...

Some people have talked about Supersix offering a 4.3 stroker but I believe those people got the SOHC mixed up with the 3.8 OHV. Supersix has a 4.3 stroker made from the 3.8 OHV but I do not think they offer a 4.3 stroker that originated from the 4.0 SOHC. Anyone verify this?

I think lifted4.0 is asking us for a direct plan with a parts list. Who is willing to do this for him?

This is a step that this guy is going to have to take mostly on his own. When doing a project like this where he wants to do a full build then it becomes much more necessary for the person doing the project to do allot of their own research to find out what they need. If it were just a simple power adder project then ask he could probably ask a question or two here and there and be fine.

There is a guy named basa820 over at the rangerpowersport forum. He has done everything you are thinking about doing. He never got the truck running right and gave up on the project. You may want to talk with him a little and get his take on this.

I don't want to appear like I am overcriticising basa because he seems like a good guy but there is a thing or two I will say about his approach to that project. His problem was that he expected everything to just fall together like it bolts right on. That just doesn't happen with a project like he tried to do. His expectations for immediate success were too high and his willingness to tough the hard times out was not enough. On top of that he made one or two decisions that weren't the most wise in my opinion. He was almost there, and would have had a pretty bad ride to prove it, but he gave up too soon. The underlying problem here was that he bit off more than he could chew. I have seen allot of Explorer, Mustang, F-150, Lincoln Mark and LS guys do that over the years. People need to give themselves a reality check before starting bigger car projects. Sometimes that weird gut feeling is just the jitters; other times it is your instincts telling you that are are about to get in over your head.