ok Lift Kit fight, need some explorers ;-)

[glfredrick]

if moab off road is close to moab, then its not local to me and shipping would be outrageous.

Moab Off-Road actually got their start in Moab, Utah, but one of the partners moved to Louisville, Kentucky and runs the business from there.

Shipping to Virginia won't be bad at all.

Also, we're Eastern wheelers so we know what works on this side of the river...

 

[SwaintaN]

I think with it being a Winter DD and with there being a third row seat in the back, ill stick with the sua and just a new set of leafs that come with the kit :-D, to many bad things can happen with SOA and a DD, from what ive been told and understand.

 

[Four0Sport]

Moab Off-Road actually got their start in Moab, Utah, but one of the partners moved to Louisville, Kentucky and runs the business from there.

Shipping to Virginia won't be bad at all.

Also, we're Eastern wheelers so we know what works on this side of the river...

West Virginia.. not western virginia. wow, thats twice on this forum.

 

[Four0Sport]

 

[Flip4ford]

If Alaska is so close to Hawaii and Arizona why is it so cold?

 

[glfredrick]

View attachment 52963

Right around the corner... You could drive over in under 4 hours.

 

[Maniak]

chris what u r not understanding though is that until you get the springs on top of the axle the only way u will get any lift in the back is with shackles you can use 1 add a leaf or 3 it doesn't make any difference other than give you a stiffer ride due to the extra spring leafs an axle flip is not that difficult to do u can eyeball the pinion angle then all that needs done is a new set of perches tacked in place directly opposite the originals and fresh u bolts(if the originals break) and its done piece of cake

This not exactly correct...

Installing an AAL correctly will lift the vehicle.

One it increases the spring rate meaning the entire pack will compress less with the same amount of weight (sort of what you said in an earlier post, but the end result is some lift). If your spring are old/weak, then yes your just getting the orig height back, but it is still lifting. If you have good springs already it will lift it by using the increased spring rate.

Also.. the AAL is NOT installed at the bottom of the pack. If you do that the AAL will by trying to lift/change the spring rate of just the overload spring which normally isn't affecting the main left until the main leaf comes down to meet the overload. It goes right above the overload spring which is the bottom of the pack.

If your SOA it changes quite a bit.. the AAL increases height by increasing the height of the entire spring pack AND it also increases the height for the same reasons it increases the height in a SUA.

If you like your ride, keep the current springs and use shackles to lift the back end a little.

As for the orig question/issue.. to get 4" you won't get that with AAL without turning your rear suspension into a brick.. Even with adding shackles..

Get new springs.. There are people that have tried to get a SOA down to 4" of lift by using shorter shackles and stock springs and they still ended up with 5" or so lift..

~Mark

 

[rangernut911980]

This not exactly correct...

Installing an AAL correctly will lift the vehicle.

One it increases the spring rate meaning the entire pack will compress less with the same amount of weight (sort of what you said in an earlier post, but the end result is some lift). If your spring are old/weak, then yes your just getting the orig height back, but it is still lifting. If you have good springs already it will lift it by using the increased spring rate.

Also.. the AAL is NOT installed at the bottom of the pack. If you do that the AAL will by trying to lift/change the spring rate of just the overload spring which normally isn't affecting the main left until the main leaf comes down to meet the overload. It goes right above the overload spring which is the bottom of the pack.

If your SOA it changes quite a bit.. the AAL increases height by increasing the height of the entire spring pack AND it also increases the height for the same reasons it increases the height in a SUA.

If you like your ride, keep the current springs and use shackles to lift the back end a little.

As for the orig question/issue.. to get 4" you won't get that with AAL without turning your rear suspension into a brick.. Even with adding shackles..

Get new springs.. There are people that have tried to get a SOA down to 4" of lift by using shorter shackles and stock springs and they still ended up with 5" or so lift..

~Mark

mark i do not know what vehicles you have been working on but if you install anything between the spring and axle in a SUA setup whether it be block or add a leaf you will be lowering the vehicle and even putting the add a leaf between the overload and the main spring pack will only remove the spring sag and not all leaf sprung vehicles have the overload spring

i have lowered countless numbers of nissan pickups using this method, nearly all nissan 2 wheel drive pickups have a SUA setup, and all of their 4 wheel drive pickups are SOA configuration
also all of ford full size 4x4 trucks are SOA and a good majority of Fords mid size vehicles are SUA as well as SOA including the explorer and the 2wd bronco2 and some 2wd rangers i have a 2wd ranger that has a Factory SOA setup and my f250 4x4 has a Factory SOA setup so i know the difference

If you are using an add a leaf to correct spring sag YOU ARE NOT LIFTING THE VEHICLE YOU ARE RESTORING RIDE HEIGHT, and yes in order to acheive this the add a leaf must be placed at the bottom of the spring pack(just above the overload if equipped) so that it uses the curvature of the add a leaf to correct the sagging spring
if you place it on top of the spring pack all you will get is a spring pack that is a little taller at the center with the ends of the add a leaf hanging in the breeze serving no function whatsoever

this is an example of a spring over axle configuration
yes it is a jeep but a good representation of what i am talking about, if you add blocks or add a leafs to this vehicle or any other with this configuration it will get lift no matter what

here is a spring under axle configuration this one is the front suspension of a suzuki samurai with no blocks as you can se in the photo if you add blocks or an add a leaf between the axle and spring you will actually lower the ride height of this vehicle and any other vehicle with this configuration the only way to get lift using this setup is to use taller shackles or place the add a leaf under the spring pack opposite the axle, or use taller springs

by the way in case any of you are wondering i used to work very closely with a 4x4 mod shop in Mohave Valley,AZ

 

[Maniak]

I think part of the issue is symantics.

If the vehicle is sagging because of a weak spring, and you add an aal you are lifting the vehicle over where it is was which means you lifted it (as I call it). Are you lifting it over stock height, problably not which means adding the lift didn't lift it above stock height.

Also, since you get "lift" over where it was before you added the AAL you will get lift over the height you had if your spring were good which would also give you lift over where it was, meaning you have lifted it over the stock height.

Either way you have lifted the rear..

You are correct that adding a block or a flat piece of metal in the spring pack would lower the vehicle, but that isn't what I'm talking about other than when I mentioned not to install the AAL under the overload (yes, I've seen people do that).

Many 2.5" lift kits come with an AAL that does actually lift the rear end. Will it give you the 2.5" lift over stock height depends on where your springs are now but it is still installing a "lift".

I am very aware of what SUA and SOA are and how they work and SUA has it benefits but so does SOA. Our current custom leaf packs (started out as OME-36 rear springs) are very soft which is great for wheeling (slow rock crawling) but even in an SUA configuration I am starting to get axle wrap. If I were to use the same spring rate in an SOA configuration I'd be getting quite a big more wrap (current springs started out as 180/210 lb spring rates)

In short, installing an AAL will lift the rear end but it is no substitute for a new leaf pack since you are lifting it over where you are now, not over stock height like a new leaf pack will do. I've never seen any one try, nor would I ever try to install multiple AAL in the same pack as it would increase the spring rate quite a bit and put extra stress on the main leaves. Installing an AAL and War-153 shackles would give a lift of 3-3.5" lift (max) over the height it was already at.

~Mark

 

[rangernut911980]

I think part of the issue is symantics.

If the vehicle is sagging because of a weak spring, and you add an aal you are lifting the vehicle over where it is was which means you lifted it (as I call it). Are you lifting it over stock height, problably not which means adding the lift didn't lift it above stock height.

Also, since you get "lift" over where it was before you added the AAL you will get lift over the height you had if your spring were good which would also give you lift over where it was, meaning you have lifted it over the stock height.

Either way you have lifted the rear..

You are correct that adding a block or a flat piece of metal in the spring pack would lower the vehicle, but that isn't what I'm talking about other than when I mentioned not to install the AAL under the overload (yes, I've seen people do that).

Many 2.5" lift kits come with an AAL that does actually lift the rear end. Will it give you the 2.5" lift over stock height depends on where your springs are now but it is still installing a "lift".

I am very aware of what SUA and SOA are and how they work and SUA has it benefits but so does SOA. Our current custom leaf packs (started out as OME-36 rear springs) are very soft which is great for wheeling (slow rock crawling) but even in an SUA configuration I am starting to get axle wrap. If I were to use the same spring rate in an SOA configuration I'd be getting quite a big more wrap (current springs started out as 180/210 lb spring rates)

In short, installing an AAL will lift the rear end but it is no substitute for a new leaf pack since you are lifting it over where you are now, not over stock height like a new leaf pack will do. I've never seen any one try, nor would I ever try to install multiple AAL in the same pack as it would increase the spring rate quite a bit and put extra stress on the main leaves. Installing an AAL and War-153 shackles would give a lift of 3-3.5" lift (max) over the height it was already at.

~Mark

ok if you are getting axle wrap might i suggest either these (better for a mud truck than a crawler)
http://www.jegs.com/i/Lakewood/620/20475/10002/-1

or these, they do not have 1 specifically for the explorer but the kit for the ranger/bronco2 should work for the explorer as they are all based on the ranger platform
http://www.rockymountainsusp.com/tractionbars.htm


and i myself would not do more than 1 add a leaf either as the rest of the suspension is not really designed for that much stress
personally i do not like SUVs but i do work on them and i have not had any problems with anything i have done on them
by the way i have a hard time vocalizing what i am wanting to do but if i just do it or try to draw a picture of what i am wanting to do i find it easier to get my point across
i know (more or less)what chris is wanting to do with his explorer in terms of lift he is also at this moment on kind of a tight budget for the build so for now i feel switching back to stock shackles and going with SOA swap would be a much less expensive way to go at this point and get coils and brackets for the front and "boom" lift done

plus at this point in time i am unsure exactly what kind of wheeling he will be doing or how much but i figure not much because at this point in time it is also his only vehicle i need to ask him yet we can also modify more at a later date but for now i am try to do decent function at a low cost for him
i can also fab some anti wrap bars for him if axle wrap turns out to be a problem they are fairly easy to do

 

[Maniak]

I think we are on the same page now..

Since he has sagging rear suspension the AAL won't lift him enough.. It would bascially just put him back to stock height or so.. then the War would only give him 1.5" more lift.. not enough... since that ends up being on 1.5" lift over stock height.

That only leaves 3 choices...

New rear springs + AAL + shackles but thats only 3" or so lift --> may not be cheap (if you replace the worn stock spring with new stock springs) and not enough lift

New rear lift springs --> not cheap

SOA + stock springs and shorter shackles (can't go much shorter) --> cheap BUT may be a little too much lift (more than 4" but less than 5.5) and "may" have axle wrap if he uses the old springs, but using the old springs would help cut down on the lift..

and your right.. w/out knowing what type of wheeling he's doing your kinda up in the air.. traction bars and rock crawling don't really mix and having it as a Daily driver compounds things and worst of all.. price.. that usually ends up dictating may things (usually not for the better).

~Mark

 

[Four0Sport]

Installing an AAL and War-153 shackles would give a lift of 3-3.5" lift (max) over the height it was already at.

this is exactly what i got with my factory spring under setup.

 

[SwaintaN]

Im gonna chime in ;-), sticking with SUA, since the RC 4" Lift comes with New Lift Springs and I already have Warrior Shackles on, will save the AAL for when it sags, no climbing, no crawling, not a full time DD, will be winter DD, getting a van for other DD times :-D Im gonna have more weight then most (from what I understand) with having a third row seat in back and 33" tire underneath

 

[Tbars4]

...I thought it was wrong to add pics of a H**P set up when we have pics of X's with anti axle wrap set ups, spring over axle, and an overload, so I thought I would add some for future readers...

 

[Four0Sport]

limit straps, axle wrap shocks, and a guard dog with a choker chain.. awesome

 

[Tbars4]

...Swaintan, you might want to add the AAL if you are adding weight in the rear, carrying loads...It will help support the weight and save the springs, give them a longer life...If you are not adding more weight to the rear, the AAL's along with the new springs may give you a stiff pick up ride in the rear when empty...

..FourOsport, that dog, not mine, was a giant lap dog...My guard dog can be seen here...
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229208

 

[Four0Sport]

i know harley is a beast, i remember the gene simmons face paint

 

[Four0Sport]

IMO, he should be fine with *NEW* leaf packs made for a lift, even with his extra weight. im running shackles and AALs on factory springs and it is STIFF! even on camping trips with 200-400 lbs of cargo in the back. my lift springs should be here by the end of this week = awesome!

 

[Maniak]

How much extra weight are you thinking? for DD usage we have a 3ft wide by 15" tall by 20" deep box with tools and liquid.. plus another 24" by 12x12 box with more tools.. and a false floor type thing full of parts and tools..

Also have a 33" spare tire on the roof.. and each tire has 8 ounces of airsoft pellets .

last time I weighed the truck in town (normal driving) is was over 4500 lbs.. Some days it hits 5000..

I'd wait for the AAL until you know you really need them.. see how it rides w/out them first.

~Mark

 

[Tbars4]

...My bad when I read his post...Dislexia is my temporary defense...: