question on wheel bearing torque spec

[Running an Explorer]

I replaced my pass side inner and outer wheel bearings (timken) yesterday but I am still getting the same exact noise as I was before, no change, possibly just a little quieter. So of course I'm questioning myself on everything I did. I followed glaciers brake diary thread. I would assume I did it correctly because there is no change at all in the noise. As I continue to figure this out, I'll take my auto hubs off and see if there are any changes (yes, my auto hubs work). My main question is I've been reading alot of other threads that talk about preloading the inner nut then backing off. I assume this "inner nut" is the 2 3/8"? Then the other threads talk about tightening an outer nut to 150lbs. or more. Glacier's diary never talks about tighting any nut to 150lbs. What nut are they talking about? The only nut I came across was the 2 3/8" one. I'm very aggravated at this. Thanks in advance and any other suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[410Fortune]

you have auto hubs so you do not have an inner and outer jamb nut like the manual hubs use

Setting the pre load on the bearings basically you tighten the spindle nut to 40 ft lbs, spin the wheel bearings both directions...back the nut off 1/4 of a turn or less (until you feel it release its grip on the bearings) spin the bearings again both directions, tighten the jamb nut to 20-30 ft lbs, (just past snug) again turn the bearings both directions...now you are ready for your locking keyway and hardware to keep the jamb nut from turning

this is the same thing we do with trailer wheel bearings, superduties, or anything that uses an inner and outer wheel bearing on a spindle

your noise may well be the U joints in the ttb are worn out? there are 3, one at each knuckle and one extra at the pass beam pivot. if those u joints are binding you will get noises and crappy turning/handling, even with hubs unlocked.

so to test if the noise is wheel bearing related, go straight down the road....anynoise? now turn slightly left and then right, adding a side load to your bearings...any change in noise? If not then it is not likely a wheel bearing noise

remove front d shaft, noise still there?

auto hubs may work now but they will fail when you need them the most and they can be intermittent, meaning they appear to be working for you but as you drive they lock and unlock the wheel to the axle

 

[Running an Explorer]

Well, I think I've came to the conclusion that the 150ft/lbs nut is for the manual hubs. I still am trying to figure out what my noise is. Last night I put the explorer in 4x4 and drove down the road and the noise sounds the same, so no change in 2wd or 4x4. My tires are Michelin defender ltx with about 10,000 miles on them, the tires still have the "rubber hairs" on the tread. But, if I rub my hand on the tread, it's smooth one way, but my hand will sort of catch rubbing it the other way, like there is some cupping going on. I wouldn't think this small amount of cupping would make such a noise. I can start to hear the noise (more of a humming rather than roaring) at around 20 mph all the way up to 70+mph (very loud at this speed). The pitch pretty much stays the same throughout, it does get louder with speed. I have noted at a slower speed, like 20-35mph, I can hear the noise almost turn into a "wha wha wha wha" noise, like a mud tire, but not nearly as intense as mud tires. The auto hubs I have on now are from a junked explorer, I've had these on for over a year. The auto hubs I had on before, wouldn't work half the time and had trouble disengaging. When the wouldn't disengage it would sound like a playing card in a bicycle wheel (like other folks have noted). That's what's making me doubt the auto hubs are the problem of this issue I am now having. I am planning to drive around with the hubs totally removed from the truck when the roads dry and I get a chance. If the noise is still there after removing the auto hubs, I'll rotate the tires next. Then if it still persists I'll probably replace the drivers side wheel bearings.

 

[410Fortune]

it does kinda sound like a wheel bearing noise from what you are saying

Any looseness in drivers side rotating assembly?
Any rough spots when spinning the tire?

Have you tried removing the front d shaft? this would rule out the diff and d shaft and t case as the noise makers (as long as your hubs are truly unlocked)

 

[Running an Explorer]

you have auto hubs so you do not have an inner and outer jamb nut like the manual hubs use

Setting the pre load on the bearings basically you tighten the spindle nut to 40 ft lbs, spin the wheel bearings both directions...back the nut off 1/4 of a turn or less (until you feel it release its grip on the bearings) spin the bearings again both directions, tighten the jamb nut to 20-30 ft lbs, (just past snug) again turn the bearings both directions...now you are ready for your locking keyway and hardware to keep the jamb nut from turning

this is the same thing we do with trailer wheel bearings, superduties, or anything that uses an inner and outer wheel bearing on a spindle

your noise may well be the U joints in the ttb are worn out? there are 3, one at each knuckle and one extra at the pass beam pivot. if those u joints are binding you will get noises and crappy turning/handling, even with hubs unlocked.

so to test if the noise is wheel bearing related, go straight down the road....anynoise? now turn slightly left and then right, adding a side load to your bearings...any change in noise? If not then it is not likely a wheel bearing noise

remove front d shaft, noise still there?

auto hubs may work now but they will fail when you need them the most and they can be intermittent, meaning they appear to be working for you but as you drive they lock and unlock the wheel to the axle

Ok, thank you, I think I posted my last post the same time you were replying to me.
I am confident I have preloaded and torqued the bearings correctly, I've replaced the bearings and switched to manual hubs on a 94 ex I used to have and everything was good on it afterwards (about 2 years ago). I've sold that one.
Will the U joints still cause a problem in 2wd? About a month ago I jacked up all four wheels and put it in gear because I was hearing this noise. I put it in 4x4 and verified my front axles spin (well one and the other rotated very slowly, like it's supposed to) and when I'd switch it back to 2wd the axles don't spin.
Concerning the noise while turning. I've noted the noise is there going down the road straight and while going around a left curve (noise is not louder going in the curve, it's the same as when I'm going straight.) But, while going around a right curve the noise goes away and then comes back as soon as I straighten out. Which that's the reason I replaced the passenger side.

 

[Running an Explorer]

it does kinda sound like a wheel bearing noise from what you are saying

Any looseness in drivers side rotating assembly?
Any rough spots when spinning the tire?

Have you tried removing the front d shaft? this would rule out the diff and d shaft and t case as the noise makers (as long as your hubs are truly unlocked)

I haven't verified if there is any play at 3 and 9 or 12 and 6 on the drivers side wheel. (If that's what you mean by rotating assembly.) I'll do that as soon as it quits raining.
The rotor is a little warped, so when I spin it by hand the brake pads will touched very slightly at a certain spot.
I haven't removed the drive shaft yet, I'm just seeing if there's something more obvious that I'm not thinking about. I can do that if need be.

 

[Running an Explorer]

I just verified that my drivers side wheel has no play at 12 and 6 or at 3 and 9. BUT, my passenger side (the side I just worked on) has slight play at 3 and 9. It has a little more play at 12 and 6, so it looks like I'll go back in and re torque everything.

 

[Running an Explorer]

Well went back and torqued everything correctly according to 410Fortune. I do have a question though. You said to final torque the nut to 20-30ft/lbs, other places I've seen say 16in/lbs. So I'm alittle confused on that. Currently I've got it torqued around 25ishft/lbs. I still have play on the wheel at 12 and 6 but not at 3 and 9. I recon that would mean ball joint? Could a bad ball joint cause a noise like this? And I still currently have the noise.
I did drive it without the auto hubs on and it still makes the noise. I also rotated my tires and there's still no difference.
I recon my next step is to remove the drive shaft and if the noise persists, I'll probably replace the drivers side wheel bearings next. If a bad ball joint could cause this I recon that'll need to be changed also.

 

[Nedwreck]

(wow it's been ages since I posted here lol)

The wheel bearing torque idea is to get them past play, just tight enough to seat themselves in the outer race properly, and that's all. I get about 20ft/lbs when my keyway lines up, a little more (but not excessive) never hurt mine. A ball joint prob along with camber being out a touch can give you more noise turning one direction than the other fwiw. Or a ball joint alone can change noise in turns if it's worn more than a little. Whatever was giving you some cupping isn't helping either. If you end up pulling things apart again clean the bearings and races and inspect. True bearing noise should leave evidence. discolored races, pits in race or bearing, race grooves. roller marks in the race. something. I run mine with zero camber and zero toe at rest, but it's only a back roads/back woods truck at this point.

It does seem like you're due for ball joint or two

 

[Running an Explorer]

(wow it's been ages since I posted here lol)

The wheel bearing torque idea is to get them past play, just tight enough to seat themselves in the outer race properly, and that's all. I get about 20ft/lbs when my keyway lines up, a little more (but not excessive) never hurt mine. A ball joint prob along with camber being out a touch can give you more noise turning one direction than the other fwiw. Or a ball joint alone can change noise in turns if it's worn more than a little. Whatever was giving you some cupping isn't helping either. If you end up pulling things apart again clean the bearings and races and inspect. True bearing noise should leave evidence. discolored races, pits in race or bearing, race grooves. roller marks in the race. something. I run mine with zero camber and zero toe at rest, but it's only a back roads/back woods truck at this point.

It does seem like you're due for ball joint or two

Ok good to know, I said 25ish lbs because of having to adjust it alittle to get the key in.
What I'll probably wind up doing is putting in new radius arm bushings then get the ball joint(s) done then get an alignment.
There was no discoloration or grooves in the old races which is another reason I doubt it was the wheel bearings all along. Maybe I've just done the wrong side.
I'll figure out some more stuff out week after next and I'll post what I find out.

 

[410Fortune]

My torque numbers are from memory and from guessing lol I have not used a torque wrench on wheel bearings in years and years, I do it by “feel” because I do a lot of wheel bearings

Us dudes with larger tires will often add a little torque to the inner nut and the jamb nut just to make sure it does not release. When the preload is set the goal is just to keep it there. It is correct the inner nut that contacts the outer wheel bearing should be at 16 ft lbs by the book. 25 will not hurt anything

Ball joints cannot have play in them because they are needed to hold your wheel alignment, if the bj has play then the alignment changes as you drive and you get uneven tire wear, warped rotors, cupped tires, brake pads will wear funny and it puts stress on other parts like the lower ball joint and wheel bearings

The knuckle u joints won’t “make noise” when in 2wd and driving no, as long as your hubs are actually working and allowing the axle shafts to free wheel. However a bound up u joint here will cause odd steering behavior and binding when turning which can lead to more wear and tear on the other parts, even in 2wd those u joints move and rotate when steering

What you did looking for
Looseness at top bottom and sides of the tire (yes rotating assembly Means tire wheel hub rotor) is what we call a shake down test. No looseness is allowed!!!! Must fix it

Again I agree if the noise changes at all when a side load is added (like turning left then right) it is usually an indicator of a wheel bearing issue.

FYI I always redo both sides at same time unless everything was just replaced. I consider bearings seals and grease cheap,
My time and labor is the expensive part so mine as well visit both bearings / brakes / ball joints as budget allows

 

[Nedwreck]

Ok good to know, I said 25ish lbs because of having to adjust it alittle to get the key in.
What I'll probably wind up doing is putting in new radius arm bushings then get the ball joint(s) done then get an alignment.
There was no discoloration or grooves in the old races which is another reason I doubt it was the wheel bearings all along. Maybe I've just done the wrong side.
I'll figure out some more stuff out week after next and I'll post what I find out.

You can't go wrong by freshening up the front end.. any bushing, ball joint, etc that's not 100%.. new wheel bearings both sides, check the rotors and calipers over real good, get a good alignment.. and then get on with life lol

Seriously, I built my '92 in '08, and other than wheel bearings (I have 33x12.50s with a skyjacker kit) and brake pads, she's never let me down or worn tires badly. We did the work at 185k on the body, it has 455k now (lots of interstate in some of those years) and is due to freshen up again.

 

[Nedwreck]

My torque numbers are from memory and from guessing lol I have not used a torque wrench on wheel bearings in years and years, I do it by “feel” because I do a lot of wheel bearings

Us dudes with larger tires will often add a little torque to the inner nut and the jamb nut just to make sure it does not release. When the preload is set the goal is just to keep it there. It is correct the inner nut that contacts the outer wheel bearing should be at 16 ft lbs by the book. 25 will not hurt anything

Ball joints cannot have play in them because they are needed to hold your wheel alignment, if the bj has play then the alignment changes as you drive and you get uneven tire wear, warped rotors, cupped tires, brake pads will wear funny and it puts stress on other parts like the lower ball joint and wheel bearings

The knuckle u joints won’t “make noise” when in 2wd and driving no, as long as your hubs are actually working and allowing the axle shafts to free wheel. However a bound up u joint here will cause odd steering behavior and binding when turning which can lead to more wear and tear on the other parts, even in 2wd those u joints move and rotate when steering

What you did looking for
Looseness at top bottom and sides of the tire (yes rotating assembly Means tire wheel hub rotor) is what we call a shake down test. No looseness is allowed!!!! Must fix it

Again I agree if the noise changes at all when a side load is added (like turning left then right) it is usually an indicator of a wheel bearing issue.

FYI I always redo both sides at same time unless everything was just replaced. I consider bearings seals and grease cheap,
My time and labor is the expensive part so mine as well visit both bearings / brakes / ball joints as budget allows

Hey 410, how many miles do you get out of wheel bearings? I'm getting about 20k-35k per set depending how I treat the truck. It's always the inner bearings that go south, of course lol. 33x12.5s on 6 in. skyjacker lift

It's great to see some old timers around here

 

[Running an Explorer]

My torque numbers are from memory and from guessing lol I have not used a torque wrench on wheel bearings in years and years, I do it by “feel” because I do a lot of wheel bearings

Us dudes with larger tires will often add a little torque to the inner nut and the jamb nut just to make sure it does not release. When the preload is set the goal is just to keep it there. It is correct the inner nut that contacts the outer wheel bearing should be at 16 ft lbs by the book. 25 will not hurt anything

Ball joints cannot have play in them because they are needed to hold your wheel alignment, if the bj has play then the alignment changes as you drive and you get uneven tire wear, warped rotors, cupped tires, brake pads will wear funny and it puts stress on other parts like the lower ball joint and wheel bearings

The knuckle u joints won’t “make noise” when in 2wd and driving no, as long as your hubs are actually working and allowing the axle shafts to free wheel. However a bound up u joint here will cause odd steering behavior and binding when turning which can lead to more wear and tear on the other parts, even in 2wd those u joints move and rotate when steering

What you did looking for
Looseness at top bottom and sides of the tire (yes rotating assembly Means tire wheel hub rotor) is what we call a shake down test. No looseness is allowed!!!! Must fix it

Again I agree if the noise changes at all when a side load is added (like turning left then right) it is usually an indicator of a wheel bearing issue.

FYI I always redo both sides at same time unless everything was just replaced. I consider bearings seals and grease cheap,
My time and labor is the expensive part so mine as well visit both bearings / brakes / ball joints as budget allows

Ok, I feel even better about that I torqued everything correctly. That's what's I'll put on the list to do next, ball joint(s) and the driver's wheel bearings. Thank you so much for your help.

You can't go wrong by freshening up the front end.. any bushing, ball joint, etc that's not 100%.. new wheel bearings both sides, check the rotors and calipers over real good, get a good alignment.. and then get on with life lol

Seriously, I built my '92 in '08, and other than wheel bearings (I have 33x12.50s with a skyjacker kit) and brake pads, she's never let me down or worn tires badly. We did the work at 185k on the body, it has 455k now (lots of interstate in some of those years) and is due to freshen up again.

Yes, I'll put some time effort and money in it to get it right. Thank you for your help. I'll update everyone when I do the work.

 

[410Fortune]

I get 60-80k miles from some timken bearings or so. I only replace them if they wear out and the cages get loose. I have modified lock nuts thay fit very tightly into the spindle so there is no play and my jamb nuts stay tight at 200 ft lbs. I have double thick jam nuts I run 35” tires and arb locker with a v8
My ttb has very good alignment

 

[dvdswan]

For your noise...

Have you looked at the spindle bearings? These are often forgotten about, never get greased, no torque spec as they are pressed in.

These needle bearings usually get damaged by water. It's pressed into the spindle and is always turning unless you are in 4WD.

 

[Running an Explorer]

For your noise...

Have you looked at the spindle bearings? These are often forgotten about, never get greased, no torque spec as they are pressed in.

These needle bearings usually get damaged by water. It's pressed into the spindle and is always turning unless you are in 4WD.

I have definitely considered the spindle bearings. But, I've been under the impression the the spindle bearings are only turning in 4wd and provided the hubs are working correctly.
The quote below is from an old thread, concerning the spindles.

well jack up that side of the truck, spin the tire. Does the axleshaft inside the beam (wheel to diff) spin?
This will tell you if your hub is working
You see one axleshaft can spin without spinning the driveshaft, with an open differential.

Howling noise can be caused by many things, worn out spindle, bad preload on the bearings, etc.

The spindle bearing (inside the spindle, supports the axleshaft) will only howl if the axleshaft is spinning. If the hub works and is unlocked then the axleshaft should not be spinning

Your spindle may in fact be worn out.
Could it possibly be from the rear, or coming frm something else, under the truck?

Whenever you have a noise like this, the best thing to do is a "shakledown test" basically get hte truck up in the air, get under there and start looking around, grab onto things, look for abnormal loosness, check U joints, ball joints, tie rods, exhaust hangers, engine mounts, etc etc..

 

[dvdswan]

With manual locking hubs in Free mode the front axle is not turning. So, the spindle bearing is turning to allow free movement of the spindle/rotor assembly.

With auto locking hubs in 2WD mode the front axle is turning to allow shift of the fly operation, BUT when turning the hubs allow to differentiate the difference in speed from the outer wheel to the inner wheel, this is where the spindle bearing comes into play. With 30 years on them I'm sure they have some scoring or pitting. If it does have scoring or pitting on the bearing it will act as a resistance and howl/groan.

 

[Running an Explorer]

With manual locking hubs in Free mode the front axle is not turning. So, the spindle bearing is turning to allow free movement of the spindle/rotor assembly.

With auto locking hubs in 2WD mode the front axle is turning to allow shift of the fly operation, BUT when turning the hubs allow to differentiate the difference in speed from the outer wheel to the inner wheel, this is where the spindle bearing comes into play. With 30 years on them I'm sure they have some scoring or pitting. If it does have scoring or pitting on the bearing it will act as a resistance and howl/groan.

Thank you, you cleared some of that up for me. So, in 2wd the spindle bearings should be turning around the axle shafts because the axle isn't moving? Then in 4x4 the spindle bearings should not be turning? Because everything has been locked into place thanks to the axle turning, which then makes the auto hub lock into place?
While in 2wd I know my front axle is not spinning, (watching the the ujoints.) The same day, I engaged 4x4 and the axle was turning (watching the ujoints again) (well one side was turning, being that it's an open diff.)
I may be misinterpreting your quote...
"With auto locking hubs in 2WD mode the front axle is turning to allow shift of the fly operation"...
It sounds like you're saying the axle is spinning all the time, in 2wd and 4x4.
But are you saying the same thing I did, that when I engage 4x4 (button on dash) the transfer case will then turn the front axle which then locks in the auto hub?

One thing that makes me doubt it's the spindle bearings is that when I was driving in 4x4 (up to 40mph) the was no change in the sound. If it was the spindle bearings, shouldn't have the noise went away while in 4x4 since the spindle is "locked in" with the axle shaft?

 

[dvdswan]

Thank you, you cleared some of that up for me. So, in 2wd the spindle bearings should be turning around the axle shafts because the axle isn't moving? Then in 4x4 the spindle bearings should not be turning? Because everything has been locked into place thanks to the axle turning, which then makes the auto hub lock into place?
While in 2wd I know my front axle is not spinning, (watching the the ujoints.) The same day, I engaged 4x4 and the axle was turning (watching the ujoints again) (well one side was turning, being that it's an open diff.)
I may be misinterpreting your quote...
"With auto locking hubs in 2WD mode the front axle is turning to allow shift of the fly operation"...
It sounds like you're saying the axle is spinning all the time, in 2wd and 4x4.
But are you saying the same thing I did, that when I engage 4x4 (button on dash) the transfer case will then turn the front axle which then locks in the auto hub?

One thing that makes me doubt it's the spindle bearings is that when I was driving in 4x4 (up to 40mph) the was no change in the sound. If it was the spindle bearings, shouldn't have the noise went away while in 4x4 since the spindle is "locked in" with the axle shaft?

If the truck is off its tires on jack stands and you are in 2wd the front axle will not turn. When the truck is on the ground and you're are driving in 2wd the front axle will turn if you have automatic locking hubs. This is not because the hubs are locked per se, but because the rolling of the wheel is turning the axle shafts freely, this is how you can shift on the fly. With a manual locking hub in free the axle does not spin, you can not shift into 4HI because the rear axle is spinning and the front is not bad things will happen to the t/case. Does that make sense.