"Red Bull"

[CDW6212R]

Is there wear on the side of the rocker where the pushrod is near, or is just wear down in the Pushrod pocket? Can you tell if the pocket is any different in that worn one versus the other rockers? I'm wondering if that rocker had excess wear before and the pocket is worn and hurting the pushrod too.

What pushrods are those, stock, new/used, stock length, aftermarket, or hardened aftermarket? You should not need expensive hardened pushrods, those are for use with pushrod guide plates or very high rpm.

With that discovered wear, you need to look at all of them, both ends of all pushrods, check them for length and straightness. Give each a mild push down into the lifter, see if they all feel the same, should have some minor resistance but all the same. Look the rockers over carefully too, for any wear of those pockets or along the area where the pushrod or spring is near.

 

[MrQ]

The other side of the pushrod that goes in the lifter has a ring worn away all the way around. That tells me the lifter is rotating.

Pushrods are aftermarket 6.3" (.05" taller than stock) not hardened.

I'll take a look at the other rockers and pushrods tomorrow and see what's going on here.

 

[CDW6212R]

The lifters won't rotate, being roller lifters. The inner part might, but it doesn't need to. In the roller 302 engines, the pushrods and rockers should develop a very small wear pattern from their shapes and the movement of the rocker. The extra wear on the one pushrod suggests something wasn't quite perfect to start with, and now you trying to figure out if it was minor manufacturing variances of the pushrod pocket and end, or something else causing it. Like the rockers(pushrod pocket or valve tip wear, or fulcrum surface), if they had developed a lot of wear over their past lifetime.

If you can't spot what might have made the extra pushrod wear, it might be best to show the parts to the machine shop who did the engine work, and ask for their recommendation. I might replace the rocker or others, and the pushrod if the wear looks more than barely surface wear(any depth at all).

 

[MrQ]

Other rocker arm pockets are about the same except for the first one I found. There was one other push rod that had markings like the first.

Only thing the machine shop did was the heads (valve springs, retainers, seals, and resurfacing) and bore and resurface the block. All assembly was done by me and the guys at BC.

Thanks for all the great info and feedback @CDW6212R !

Sorry for all the "thumbnail" shots.

 

[CDW6212R]

You are doing fine, hopefully what's up there is some minor wear of a rocker or two, and replacing them might be all it needs.

An engine is a complicated machine, there are tons of parts and lots to check out during assembly. Many used parts can be reused, but they still have to be inspected well. Things like rocker arms can be used for a long long time, in fact in the first engine I built(351C-4V), I didn't replace much. I put in new pistons/rings, rod bolts, oil pump, balancer, lifters, valve springs, plus the normal internal stuff. Basically all bolts were used again, back then there were no throw away bolts like today(TTY bolts(one use)).

 

[410Fortune]

Houston we have a problem
That wear pattern is not normal??

something fishy
is that the rocker side or lifter side? Im guessing rocker side

The pocket in the rocker arm looks worn out too! That will probably be the source of your noise
might need new replacement rockers

Also you were supposed to measure for pushrods!!! with machine work being done to the heads its quite possible 6.3 might not be correct anymore

Fun fact the stock 1.6:1 rockers are more like 1.4:1 according to Brett and his engine builder... I have been talking to Brett about getting a set of roller rockers to work properly on these heads, he likes to convert away from the pedestal mount there is a nice conversion kit that includes pushrod guides

 

[MrQ]

That is rocker side, cylinder 1. I had another like it on cylinder 7. The rest were fine.

I did measure for new pushrods and they came out to 6.3", just like yours.

Roller rockers are a worthwhile upgrade? I mean if I need new rockers anyway. Setting those up would be more difficult as they require adjustment since you go to a stud style, correct?

After all this, why don't you just go to aluminum heads?

 

[410Fortune]

aluminum heads are pricey and you still have to go through this
Glad you measured, many of these builds end up with 6.3 pushrods

Roller rockers only worthwhile at higher rpm, like 4200+
My trucks rarely see 4500+ rpm.... I tried FMS 1.6:1 RR on my 96 explorer and they were noisy, I could not keep them straight on the pedestals so I went back to stamped rockers.

 

[CDW6212R]

Pedestal rockers are very reliable, relatively quiet, and the power to gain with roller rockers is under 5hp for typical street builds. So if you don't need to go to rollers for a mild build, I'd stick with the stock type. I agree that the QC is less on OEM rockers, the ratios will be not a perfect 1.6:1, but I'd heard they might be off maybe 0.5:1 at most on random parts.

You now have some wear marks on the valve tips I presume, can you tell if the rockers are riding centered on all of the tips? If the wear there looks centered, that pushrod length it fine. I too would probably just replace the rockers that look worn much in the pushrod pockets, and the pushrods if there is much metal worn off of those tips.

 

[MrQ]

It looks like the pushrods are fine, I can't feel any damage with my fingernail, the coating just seems to be removed. It looks like I got to them before it got too bad. I'd hate to have one of those grind out or worse, break through the pocket.

I'll get two new rocker arms and fulcrums on order and get this guy back together. Next up, the oil leak.

 

[CDW6212R]

Very good, that's a good catch and the noise seems to have pointed to that. How do all of the rocker/fulcrum surfaces look? Those will all have lots of wear marks from mating to each other, normal wear is no problem. But just like the pushrod pocket, there should be no significantly deep wear.

I had two 351 Cleveland's to work with when I built my first one. I bought a 4V engine to replace the stock 2v, the rockers and pushrods are identical on all of those. So I had two sets of valvetrain parts to look at and choose the best. I didn't really reject any of them, all 32 sets were okay, but I picked the best looking 16 of course.

The OEM pedestal rockers haven't changed designs since the late 60's. So they are well tested, it's as easy as confirming nothing is really hurt from old age.

 

[410Fortune]

heck yes! Way to hang in there

 

[MrQ]

Very good, that's a good catch and the noise seems to have pointed to that. How do all of the rocker/fulcrum surfaces look? Those will all have lots of wear marks from mating to each other, normal wear is no problem. But just like the pushrod pocket, there should be no significantly deep wear.

They look good, the fulcrum and rocker oil pathways are aligned and other than the pockets having some wear I think I'm okay.

 

[CDW6212R]

Excellent, that's what we want to hear.

 

[MrQ]

Ok, parts on order.

Yay, new parts!

 

[MrQ]

Finally started tearing into Red. It does look like the front main seal was leaking and here's why:

Took all the surface rust off with some fine sand paper and it was good as new.

After getting the seal out with a prybar and generous use of the swaybar for leverage, I couldn't figure out to get the new one in. I couldn't fit a hammer in there, no real way to hold the seal to get a good whack on it. Then I came up with this idea.

I took the old seal (after flattening the lip back out) and put on the balance shaft in reverse so the wide lip would be facing toward the engine. I then slid the new one on the correct way with the lip facing the balancer, installed the balancer and pressed the seal in with the balancer bolt. Worked like a charm. I did have to remove the balancer again, but not a big deal considering this got the seal in right.0

I then started to move on to the rocker arms and I noticed something about the TPS harness.

Looks like it had a couple of interactions with the EGR tube. Fortunately the wires were ok, so I'll throw on a little electrical tape and then it's good as new!

Now comes the real interesting part. I notice through the valve springs that some of the valve seals seemed to be riding higher than their counterparts. After futzing with the damn spring compressor on the #2 exhaust valve , the one that had oil in it from when I was doing the exhaust manifolds, it turns out I was right about the reason for the oil; the valve seal was not installed all the way! I am now making my way through the rest of the valves to verify they are all fully seated. I'm glad I went the extra distance to check.

 

[MrQ]

Cylinder 4 was worse.

Seated

 

[CDW6212R]

Excellent work, well done to keep at the details.

Good thinking to install the new front seal. I've never done one in the car, only with the timing cover out. That makes me wonder if an electric hammer would work for that, I have one that was given to me. It is a funny looking thing, a 12v Nextec tool, the tip is just a small flat rounded end, which oscillates in and out. I've only used it once, on the nails that hold my garage door seal on the bottom. The end two I couldn't get on with a hammer at all, so I grabbed the 12v hammer. Bam, 2-3 seconds each and they just run in with a buzzing noise.

 

[410Fortune]

who the hell did these heads??????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Show them the pics, maybe get some $$$ back? extend the warranty? something

Well done my man well done. So glad to see you HANGING IN THERE
Once the bugs are worked out RED will be as reliable as stripe and then some...... it is worth it to wrench and wrench and wrench even when it feels hopeless it is WORTH IT because for every battle you win now you will get years of trouble free service..........say it with me now FIVE OH!!!!!!!!!

 

[MrQ]

There was also this nagging thought that the inner spring was catching on the valve seal and pulling it off. Considering how tight the inner spring was to the seal, I went to HF to grab a caliper to check.

The results are not promising:

Only .014" difference, so .007" clearance between the inner spring and the seal.

FML.

I will never use that shop again. They should have measured the whole thing before installing. Now I need to get the correct size so my springs don't remove my seals during operation.

Red's going to be down quite a bit longer.