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Soooo... Now I am thinking about this. "Steering"

Cali_Xploder

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This is a spin off of something I said in the "question about lockers" thread.

But say I wanted to lock the front end, I would want to run Hyrdo assist steering. Well with a single swing steering setup, I could run hydro steering and be able to turn a locked front end with out so much plowing around. Maybe I am talking out my butt here, But I have been playing on the dezert sites and they are running hydro on the beamed 4x4 long travel trucks.

I guess I am wondering if anyone from around here has done it, and does it work as good moving slow, as it apparently does bombing through the desert.
My truck doesn't actually do much rock crawling, but I do a lot of exploring... Literally. Little goat trails to no where type stuff.

Anyways, I have the super runner steering right now, which I am going to lose for a swing set anyways. I may as well add the hydro assist and go for an ARB at the same time.

Any thoughts from some people in the know.
 


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Tbars4

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...Since you will be running an ARB up front it is selectable and you won't have the steering problems as those with an autolocker would have...You can always turn it off to steer in tight places...;)

...There are many threads on here about hydro assist which one day I may do...For now I went a little cheaper on my X and it has an autolocker up front..
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240227&highlight=agr
 








IZwack

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This is a spin off of something I said in the "question about lockers" thread.

But say I wanted to lock the front end, I would want to run Hyrdo assist steering. Well with a single swing steering setup, I could run hydro steering and be able to turn a locked front end with out so much plowing around. Maybe I am talking out my butt here, But I have been playing on the dezert sites and they are running hydro on the beamed 4x4 long travel trucks.

I guess I am wondering if anyone from around here has done it, and does it work as good moving slow, as it apparently does bombing through the desert.
My truck doesn't actually do much rock crawling, but I do a lot of exploring... Literally. Little goat trails to no where type stuff.

Anyways, I have the super runner steering right now, which I am going to lose for a swing set anyways. I may as well add the hydro assist and go for an ARB at the same time.

Any thoughts from some people in the know.
No offense but I think you need to first understand why the swing-set steering exists - and what advantages it has (over the usual inverted-Y design) when it is applied within the context it is often used in (high speed desert racing with over 2-ft of suspension travel). Designing, fabricating, and installing a swing-set on a normal TTB setup is probably a waste of resources because, while it would help alleviate some of the problems associated with the TTB when used in the high speed desert environment, most 1st gens are not up to the level where it can take full advantage of the swing-set design. In other words, the amount of resources you throw at the project doesnt really justify the returns you would receive when all is said and done.

If you are just looking making it easier to turn the tires from lock to lock, then look at the "West texas pump mod" (search Google) - which increases the hydraulic pressure of the steering pump and costs almost $0.
 




Cali_Xploder

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Well... I was more wondering about this, so I wouldn't have to continually turn on / off the ARB pump. I guess I should have expected an answer of this nature though. I was called a retard when I decided to run 8 lug outers on a dana 35 ttb. Yet my axle performs flawlessly.

On the other end of that, I needed to match the lug pattern of the dana 70 I am running in the rear of the truck. I am running chevy power steering off an old dually, not the typical ford power steering, I can turn 35's easily with very low air pressure. How ever, when you lock or spool an axle, they tend to lose a lot of turning radius. I was looking at a single swing design, because it would give me a better platform to mount a ram too. Being the swing measures an 8" stroke, the same as the ram I would use. The other reason for wanting to fabricate a swing set, is I could run 1.25" x .388 wall dom or moly tube... A serious upgrade compared to this dip shit super runner steering kit. The heavier tube would also allow a better platform for welding the ram mounting tabs.

Next issue, I am not running equal length beams, hence the need for a "single swing". I understand the logic and practicality behind dual swing steering and the drastic toe changes that come with 21" travel beam trucks. I am not looking for information on that subject...

I am wondering if anyone has used this technology under a slower moving off road vehicle, that in fact uses ttb beams and wants to run a locker off road. That's most of my motivation in it's self, using hydro assist to help turn the front end while locked up. I see the heavy tube single swing as a good alternative to my current set up.

Can we try this again possibly, and by all means... Let's please avoid any sort of "I can pee farther than you can".

I am simply looking for information.
 




little x

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FYI: I've got a full time locker in the front, 34's, a steering stabilizer, a slowly failing power steering pump, and a smaller than factory steering wheel, all of which make turning the wheel more difficult. I still don't have any problems turning the wheels. But, I still want to see you build a swingset.
 




KPSquared

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If I am reading your original post right, you want to add hydro and swingset sterring so you can turn with the front end locked?

It doesn't matter if you have hydro, a half wore out stock pump, or get get out and kick the tires in the right direction... If your front end is locked tight, even with the tires turned to full lock, it will tend to plow straight ahead and be difficult to make the truck turn, it's not that difficult to physically turn the wheels.

And as far as an ARB goes, I wouldn't even bother turning it on until you got into a situation where you actually needed the front end locked it. If you've got the rear locked, you can do a lot of wheeling before you ever need the front locked in. Then when you hit a really squirrelly hill or get into some goop, hit the switch and you've got instant traction...

I know I didn't answer your post at all, but I am a little confused as to your reasons for wanting to do this particular modification. Then again, maybe I'm just an a$$hat with no clue... if that's the case I'll go away...
 




Cali_Xploder

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Sorry I brought it up... Seemed like a good idea while I was thinking about it, and it still does.

I know I am new around this site, but I have built a few trucks now for different purposes. This truck has been my first experience with TTB, I have always just run straight axles for crawlers. I decided to build this thing to go explore with, and ride around the mountains with my family. It's not a crawler, it doesn't have 2' of front travel, it's just a well built trail rig.

Now, if anyone has experience with single swing steering, and would like to discuss its benefits / or lack of in this application... I would love to hear your input. If you just have an opinion of why it wont work, or want to share any other negative input... Please don't.

If this thread is too far off track, feel free to delete it. I am thinking I may find a better suited (un biased) conversation on the dezert forums anyways...
 




Tbars4

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...I understand your wanting to put a swingset in but I believe your reasoning behind it and description of your wants is throwing everyone off..:dunno:

..As I mentioned earlier there are several threads to be found if you search the topic "Swingset" or "Hydro" on here...

...My suggestion of the AGR is one of the common ways along with the Chevy steering box as you have already done to improve steering...As for needing it for...
I decided to build this thing to go explore with, and ride around the mountains with my family.

..You are more than adequate but I believe you are wanting to exceed your need and just do it out of desire and I can understand that too...The whole idea of a selectable locker up front is not to only have the traction when you want it but also have the steering when you want it and as mentioned before, being locked in the rear you would only need the use of the front locker on much harder stuff...This means hardly ever using your front locker if at all for what you have described...

...This is from one of the many threads to be found here...:biggthump
attachment.php
 




4x4junkie

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Hydro (ram) assist is actually EXTREMELY popular on slow-moving crawlers (not sure why so much distraction here with the swingset thing... type of steering has little relevance at the slow end of the speed spectrum :confused: ). The ram fully makes turning the wheel more effortless, however like was said, it will not 100% restore your full turning radius just because of the locked axle scrubbing the tires. But then you just turn the ARB off if it's not needed.
If you check out sites geared for crawlers such as Pirate4x4, you'll find lots of people using a ram-assist setups for slow-speed use, many are using full 100% hydraulic steering as well.

Don't overlook the fact your Superrunner kit gives you an ideal place to mount a ram to as well (mount it to the centerlink). Of course you'd probably have to lose the spindly tierods for something stouter though, and beef up the idler on it some.
I had planned to mount a ram to the centerlink on my BII, although for some reason it seems to turn pretty well without it. My Ranger OTOH the steering sucks hardcore on it. Not sure why the difference.
 




IZwack

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I am wondering if anyone has used this technology under a slower moving off road vehicle, that in fact uses ttb beams and wants to run a locker off road. That's most of my motivation in it's self, using hydro assist to help turn the front end while locked up. I see the heavy tube single swing as a good alternative to my current set up..
Its an alternative but as stated, try the West Texas pump mod first before you drop more money.
 




Cali_Xploder

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Found what I was looking for. Thanks all for the input and other ways of looking at this. This isn't my vehicle or picture, credit goes to DSRacing. But that's is what I will model my steering after. Just wanted to make sure it looked as good on paper as it did in my head.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/DSRanger/PC210047.jpg


P.S. Super runner steering is complete and total garbage. I would have just continued to run it, if I wasn't constantly replacing TRE's.

Once my truck is back from the motor shop, I will try and remember to document the steps to building this style steering set up " For the guy that asked me to". All be it over kill or not, I feel it is superior in design either way you look at it.

As for the legal issues involved with running heim joints in the steering, I will have to deal with that when it arises. At least I am not trying to drive around on full hydro, like so many of the crawler guys I used to wheel with...


Anyways, best wishes and thanks again for the input.
 




4x4junkie

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P.S. Super runner steering is complete and total garbage. I would have just continued to run it, if I wasn't constantly replacing TRE's.
.

Apparently you didn't read my post :rolleyes:

I suggested to swap out it's tierods... If you can't seem to keep a set of TREs on it, then certainly this would help (if it's the centerlink TRE, grind out the weld and put a bung on the end so you can thread a better one in it (or a heim if that's what you want).

FWIW, mine have held up fine for 5 years now. I do grease them twice a year however.
 




C

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One thing to keep in mind is that the swing steering setups only really work with 2" lift brackets or less. Cut and turn beams are a must. I've looked at single and double swings with 4" lift brackets and it's possible but you end up with a 1 foot long swingger arm and everything gets in the way and you have stupid TRE angles. It's possible to do it but it's going to look like shit getting it right.

I ran a locker on the front of my B2 and didn't have much issues with turning. other than overheating the stock pump.

I've got an open diff now with a saginaw pump and a cooler and it works like butter.
 




Cali_Xploder

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Good stuff! I was thinking about that, trying to place the steering points compared to the beam points. It actually looks like 2" pivots would be the magical number, even over stock pivots due to clearance issues.

Thank you for the confirmation though. This will be my first swing set, and I am really trying to learn a lot about it. I may end up contracting it out to a shop... ~Grin Either way, it will be a learning experience.
 




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