Timing Advance?

[Lazzman]

Funny thing when I was getting my Diablosport chip re-tuned last weekend.

No matter how much advance the tuner programed into the chip my engine simply would not knock, whether it was 93 or 87 octane. This happened the first time he programmed the chip as well, he was never able to get to the point where the engine knocked.

He even stated the same thing on both occassions, that he was at the comfort limit of advance and that if the engine did knock, to give him a call and he would back off the advance a bit. The engine has never knocked either time and that is in warm, hot, cold weather with low octane, high octane, going up hills etc... etc..

What would cause the engine not to knock? Perhaps what ever method the chip is using to advance the timing is not working? He seems frustrated as well, as the modifications he puts in the chip each time on his computer don't seem to make that much of a difference on the dyno.

It stands to reason that if he programmed extreme advanced timing into the chip that the engine would ping. I have never even gotten close to that point.

What electrical sensors on the engine are responsible for advancing the timing?

Constructive thoughts from anyone??

 

[gijoecam]

Just because it wasn't knocking doesn't mean it wasn't getting pre-ignition.... if the knock sensor detects it, wouldn't the system automatically compensate by retarding the timing regardless of what the fuel/ignition curve calls for?

Just thinkin' out loud... I know nothing about tuning...

 

[aldive]

Did your tuner datalog the timing? Wonder if you are really getting advanced timing in that chip??????

What was the tomming?

 

[Jefe]

The SOHC does have a knock sensor, which could (and should) be retarding the timing before it gets to knock. A datalog would tell what timing the computer is commanding and if the knock sensor is activated.

 

[Lazzman]

True but my experience shows that at least a little knock would be heard before the knock sensor kicked in. All new cars have knock sensors and this guy tunes a lot of Mustangs. His general method is to tune it right to the edge then dial it back a few degree's. If a car with a knock sensor couldn't knock why would he tell me to call him if it started knocking??

He did not data log anything, nor was he very helpful. I believe the method of the chip is to increase fuel and spark duration.

 

[aldive]

He did not data log anything, nor was he very helpful.

Why do you keep using this fellow?

I believe the method of the chip is to increase fuel and spark duration.

As has been told to you many times before, get rid of that chip and go with an SCT Xcal2.

 

[Jakee]

I honestly thought you'd detonate sooner because you widened the spark gap. Widening the gap may prevent you from achieving more timing. don't know.

 

[aldive]

What is your current timing?

 

[Jakee]

What is your current timing?

Not sure if you're talking to me? If you are, you'll have to ask James. He's the tuner. I don't want to guess at what he's done but he's told me, "I've thrown the timing to it".

 

[aldive]

Not sure if you're talking to me? If you are, you'll have to ask James. He's the tuner. I don't want to guess at what he's done but he's told me, "I've thrown the timing to it".

No, I wasn't talking to you.

The question was for Lazz.

 

[Lazzman]

Al, I thought about getting the Xcal but the guy at speed shop said a chip and a Xcal do the same thing. I was skeptical but would rather spend the $200 on a chip retune than the $400 or more on an Xcal.

That chip tuner sucked and I am seriously contemplating taking the damn thing out altogether, though I did spend $600 on the thing thus far.

I have spent way to much on this 9yr old truck with 156k mi on it thus far. I average about $300 a month trying to get it to run like new.

I do not know what the timing is because I cannot data log yet.

One good thing Al the Gas milage seems to have gone up by 3 -5 mpg since the re-tune. Whether it was the chip tune or the spark gap increase for the
Screamin Deamon I don't know.

If I wanted to trash the chip and go with a handheld what would be the least expensive avenue to pursue? It was great when Doug had the custom flasher for $300.

 

[aldive]

Al, I thought about getting the Xcal but the guy at speed shop said a chip and a Xcal do the same thing. I was skeptical but would rather spend the $200 on a chip retune than the $400 or more on an Xcal.

Havn't you leaned yet? Those people are clueless and have seen you comming.

That chip tuner sucked and I am seriously contemplating taking the damn thing out altogether, though I did spend $600 on the thing thus far.te

... and got what? More frustration? Cut your losses and go a different way; do not surrender whatever you do.

I have spent way to much on this 9yr old truck with 156k mi on it thus far. I average about $300 a month trying to get it to run like new.

I do not know what the timing is because I cannot data log yet.

Didn't you ask the so called tuner? Look at on an OBDII scanner.

One good thing Al the Gas milage seems to have gone up by 3 -5 mpg since the re-tune. Whether it was the chip tune or the spark gap increase for the
Screamin Deamon I don't know.

Good news indeed. I am anxiously awaiting new plugs with the wide gaps myself.

If I wanted to trash the chip and go with a handheld what would be the least expensive avenue to pursue? It was great when Doug had the custom flasher for $300.

Contact Doug ( http://www.bamachips.com/ ) or James ( http://hensonperformance.com/welcome.html ); both are good guys ( I have meet both ) and will put you in the ball park with mail order tuning.


Lazz, you keep asking for advise and suggestions and yet you ignore those whgo want to help you.

Have you looked these folks? http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/pricing.htm

 

[Jakee]

What ever you do, don't give up on this.

I say listen to Aldive and have him help you. It would be good to see some of the problems somehow? Video of when it cuts out? something other than words.

 

[Lazzman]

I have the passion to get this truck fixed or I would not have invested over $5000 in it since I started this project.

Problem is, performance shops want to work on Mustangs and WRX Subarus not Explorers. Also the truck is older with high milage and most mechanics think it is should have problems at its age. They don't want to waste their time on something they can't fix.

Interesting thing, I was driving home last night and when I merged onto the highway I punched it, the truck took off harder than it ever had before. Thing is I forgot I had turned the chip off, which means the truck ran better with the chip out of it.

I am going to pull it this weekend and see.

 

[aldive]

I have the passion to get this truck fixed or I would not have invested over $5000 in it since I started this project.

Way to go. Too bad you have wasted so much money.

Problem is, performance shops want to work on Mustangs and WRX Subarus not Explorers. Also the truck is older with high milage and most mechanics think it is should have problems at its age. They don't want to waste their time on something they can't fix.

Get a mailorder SCT tune and tuner from Doug or James. I promise you tunes from eith of them will perform.

Interesting thing, I was driving home last night and when I merged onto the highway I punched it, the truck took off harder than it ever had before. Thing is I forgot I had turned the chip off, which means the truck ran better with the chip out of it.

Didn't you test with and without the "chip" on the dyno? What was the difference there. You were advised to pull that "chip" a long, long time ago; once again you just don't listen to some of us who have learned from our mistakes years ago.

You would be many dollars to the good if you would only listen.

I am going to pull it this weekend and see.

Good deal.

Then get an XCal2 and make some HP.

 

[Lazzman]

Al, what is wrong with 195hp at the wheel??

When I pull the chip I am going to mail it down to you as a souvenier.

Peace out.

 

[aldive]

Al, what is wrong with 195hp at the wheel??

When I pull the chip I am going to mail it down to you as a souvenier.

Peace out.

Its very respectable power. Now post the charts I would love to see the curve.

Did you do pulls with and w/o the chip? Did you change tunes on the chip and do pulls ?

What happened to the nitrous you talked about?

 

[aldive]

Al, what is wrong with 195hp at the wheel??

When I pull the chip I am going to mail it down to you as a souvenier.

Peace out.

Are you saying that you made 195 RWHP with the chip not working? Now that is impressive.

 

[JDraper]

Did your tuner turn your knock sensors off before advancing the timing? If he didn't, he just wasted your time and money. The knock sensors will detect detonation long before your ear hears it and retard the timing back. When I tuned my Mach, we dialed back the sensitivity of the knock sensors about 50% because they were over-sensitive and putting a dip in my power curves.

SCT XCal2 or Diablosport Predator (NOT the chip) are the ways to go. Use whichever one you can find a good tuner for. I personally have a Predator, but would probably go XCal2 or Livewire if I had to do it over again.

 

[Lazzman]

195hp with the chip Al.

I don't know if he turned off the knock sensor, but he is supposedly a seasoned proffesional and endorsed by the Diablosport folks.

I would be surprised if he was doing tunes without knowing what to do.

I might want to give him a boot in the ass for stealing $600 from me.