Typical brake pedal feel?

[usapadyra]

Wondering what kind of brake pedal feel / travel is typical of 2nd gen?

Reading some conflicting things from past discussions on here.

Whenever I drive a modern car I'm always surprised how instant and firm the brake pedal is. Is it possible to get a 98 Explorer to that same level?

My brake pedal always travels about 2 or 3 inches before brake force is felt. It is not spongey once resistance starts, it is strong, consistent and won't continue to drop.

Recently vacuum flushed / bled in order:
- RR
- LR
- RF
- LF

Fair amount of air was getting sucked in through the threads on the bleeder screw, but I carried on until the fluid was totally clear on each caliper. Tightened the bleed nipple with strong vacuum still pulling.

Fluid looks great but the brake feel is exactly the same, honestly.

Reading some stuff about ABS pump bleeding, and master cylinder adjustment rod.

I use ForScan Lite, and it looks like I can run the ABS self test, but I'm not sure that's the same as running the bleed procedure on it.

Is this just how it is on these trucks?

 

[wollimann]

Is it possible to get a 98 Explorer to that same level?

With no extra expensive modifications it is not possible. For the day one i had the feeling that the brakes are underdesigned.
Every bleeding and/or changing to "power" brakes, rotors, and all that stuff will give you a temporary better feeling.
The "bite" of modern brakes the explorer will never learn.

 

[Pete Deering]

Wondering what kind of brake pedal feel / travel is typical of 2nd gen?

Reading some conflicting things from past discussions on here.

Whenever I drive a modern car I'm always surprised how instant and firm the brake pedal is. Is it possible to get a 98 Explorer to that same level?

My brake pedal always travels about 2 or 3 inches before brake force is felt. It is not spongey once resistance starts, it is strong, consistent and won't continue to drop.

Recently vacuum flushed / bled in order:
- RR
- LR
- RF
- LF

Fair amount of air was getting sucked in through the threads on the bleeder screw, but I carried on until the fluid was totally clear on each caliper. Tightened the bleed nipple with strong vacuum still pulling.

Fluid looks great but the brake feel is exactly the same, honestly.

Reading some stuff about ABS pump bleeding, and master cylinder adjustment rod.

I use ForScan Lite, and it looks like I can run the ABS self test, but I'm not sure that's the same as running the bleed procedure on it.

Is this just how it is on these trucks?

1.you bleed the brakes, no air in the system.
2. A soft pedal, is also cause by the rubber brake hoses.
There are 5. As the they age, they become soft.
2 front hoses, 2 rear hoses at each caliper and one in the center at or over the diff.
3. When was the hoses replace?

 

[410Fortune]

Could also be air in the abs system
That is if you think your pedal is softer then it should be

A good way to
Bleed the air from the abs is find a patch of gravel….. activate the abs brakes over and over… if there is any air in there it will move downstream to the calipers and can be bled out

 

[J_C]

After I replaced my hard lines, soft hoses and 3 out of 4 calipers, I had mushy brakes. I carefully drove it a while, got ABS to activate a few times on a gravel lot, bled again and still a bit mushy, but drove just a little more and it got firmer, just as firm as before I touched anything, though never as good as a new car. Since it got firmer without bleeding yet another time, I have to suspect that any air travelled up and out the master cylinder.

Fair amount of air was getting sucked in through the threads on the bleeder screw

I was working with 3 new calipers, and the 4th had the bleeder screw seized in, so instead of trying too hard and damaging it, I took the caliper off, put it on a bench to get the bleeder screw out. I don't recall if I used a new bleeder screw or just cleaned up that one and the thread hole, but thread leak was one of my concerns so I got it clean.

When I put the bleeder back in, after I started threading it, I packed a liberal amount of silicone paste grease around the threads. I loosened the bleeders on the other replacement new calipers and packed grease around them as well. This wasn't just to help them seal while bleeding but also, help to slow down rust for the next time I have to loosen them. Once I put new rubber caps over the screws, there was no exposed metal on the bleeder screws.

 

[usapadyra]

1.you bleed the brakes, no air in the system.
2. A soft pedal, is also cause by the rubber brake hoses.
There are 5. As the they age, they become soft.
2 front hoses, 2 rear hoses at each caliper and one in the center at or over the diff.
3. When was the hoses replace?

To my knowledge they have never been replaced. But they are in good visual condition, at least.

Could also be air in the abs system
That is if you think your pedal is softer then it should be

A good way to
Bleed the air from the abs is find a patch of gravel….. activate the abs brakes over and over… if there is any air in there it will move downstream to the calipers and can be bled out

It's hard to say. The pedal is firm once braking 'starts', it just depresses a couple of inches before any braking is felt.

 

[J_C]

Wondering what kind of brake pedal feel / travel is typical of 2nd gen?

My brake pedal always travels about 2 or 3 inches before brake force is felt. It is not spongey once resistance starts, it is strong, consistent and won't continue to drop.

Recently vacuum flushed / bled

You made an account in fall '22. Is that when you acquired the vehicle and were the brakes like that, from then until your (recent?) bleeding of them? Were you just flushing old fluid or was there another reason for the bleeding?

A lot can happen to a vehicle after this many years, do you have receipts/records for prior repair/work to know if/when anyone last touched the brake system, an idea if it was done professionally and "probably" if bled, all the air was removed during the past service? You stated that to your knowledge the soft hoses have never been replaced, but do you notice any dissimilarities between them in age or the calipers, any indication that some parts might not be the originals?

I'm just trying to determine, odds perhaps, of whether there might have been air in the line all along or whether it is more likely time to try replacing the soft hoses, if that can be done without damaging the lines trying to remove them. In my case, my region, I was not able to remove the soft hoses without shearing the old rusted hard lines off, but then I didn't try very hard either because I had already planned to replace both.

 

[usapadyra]

You made an account in fall '22. Is that when you acquired the vehicle and were the brakes like that, from then until your (recent?) bleeding of them? Were you just flushing old fluid or was there another reason for the bleeding?

A lot can happen to a vehicle after this many years, do you have receipts/records for prior repair/work to know if/when anyone last touched the brake system, an idea if it was done professionally and "probably" if bled, all the air was removed during the past service? You stated that to your knowledge the soft hoses have never been replaced, but do you notice any dissimilarities between them in age or the calipers, any indication that some parts might not be the originals?

I'm just trying to determine, odds perhaps, of whether there might have been air in the line all along or whether it is more likely time to try replacing the soft hoses, if that can be done without damaging the lines trying to remove them. In my case, my region, I was not able to remove the soft hoses without shearing the old rusted hard lines off, but then I didn't try very hard either because I had already planned to replace both.

Bought the car at 150k miles March 2021. It had been LA operated since first sold.

Never had any issues with braking, but then again, I have a relaxed driving style and leave loads of space. And most of my driving is rural or semi-rural so I have never had to emergency brake. Not once.

Brake hoses all look original, if I had to guess. They all have the same amount of build up and the same shade of slightly washed out grey / what might have once been black colour. Calipers all match up and have the same amount of surface rust and build up.

I recently got a vacuum pump extractor that came with a brake bleed adaptor so I thought for the cost of 32oz of brake fluid, it would be worth getting the old fluid out, and maybe it would bleed some air (if there was any) to get a better pedal feel.

Went through almost the whole 32oz, being liberal and pulling through a lot of fresh fluid even after it was running clear.

After the flush, brake pedal was pretty much the same. That is to say, strong and steady braking, but only after 2 or 3 inches of depression.

The only records available are those that appear on CarFax. It only ever says 'Brakes checked', apart from one 'Brakes Serviced' at 94k in 2005 at the Dealership.

 

[usapadyra]

Might be worth mentioning that I have driven older cars with a soft or mushy brake pedal, and they have always been spongey from first pressing all the way down. Mine feel different, it's like a dead zone before good brake feel starts.

 

[Pete Deering]

Might be worth mentioning that I have driven older cars with a soft or mushy brake pedal, and they have always been spongey from first pressing all the way down. Mine feel different, it's like a dead zone before good brake feel starts.

I have a 1977 & 1989 and the petal are hard and firm. Age has nothing to do with it, if all the component are new or in working order.
What about the rear center rubber brake hose?

 

[J_C]

^ My '98 does not have a rear center brake hose, is a hard line all the way across the axle.

 

[wollimann]

strong and steady braking, but only after 2 or 3 inches of depression.

How does it came to this "dead zone" circumstance, does it came slowly or suddenly?
Rubber brake lines could look good from outside but they can get dents while braking.
Stainless steel brake lines are a good investigation in savety.

Sometimes on old master brake cylinders while manually bleeding the brakes (two person pump method)
the seals inside the MBC could be damaged. They did not last for ever.
If seals are damaged brake fluid rins out at the lower side of the MBC flange.
After that the brake booster housing lost the paint and get rusty downwards.

I recently got a vacuum pump extractor

The first time i used this tool i thought that it was a good idea for the bleeding process as a single person.
But i recognized that the bleeding srew adaptor sucks air inside, i think air was also sucking through the bleeding screw threads.
So i changed a big amount of brake fluid but the air bubbles do not stop and no better brake feeling.
The best way for bleeding is pressurized brake fluid taken to the MBC.

But all that didn't fix your problem, so what could cause this dead zone.
If the push pin of the brake booster is aligned properly to the master brake cylinder, the brake booster valve and the vacuum tube is ok,
no leaking brake pistons or leaking master brake cylinder then I would say that is a rubber brake line issue.

 

[wollimann]

My '98 does not have a rear center brake hose, is a hard line all the way across the axle.

On the rear driver side there must be this rubber hose.

 

[Pete Deering]

^ My '98 does not have a rear center brake hose, is a hard line all the way across the axle.

This what I am talking about.

 

[J_C]

I have something similar on the left rear wheel well area but only 4 brake soft lines total on the vehicle, unless you are counting that one piece, as two lines.

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[Pete Deering]

^ My '98 does not have a rear center brake hose, is a hard line all the way across the axle.

This what I am talking about.

I have something similar on the left rear wheel well area but only 4 brake soft lines total on the vehicle, unless you are counting that one piece, as two lines.

1998 FORD EXPLORER 4.0L V6 SOHC Brake Hose | Shop Now at RockAuto

Brake & Wheel Hub Parts and More for Your 1998 FORD EXPLORER at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.

www.rockauto.com

Yes

 

[usapadyra]

How does it came to this "dead zone" circumstance, does it came slowly or suddenly?
Rubber brake lines could look good from outside but they can get dents while braking.
Stainless steel brake lines are a good investigation in savety.

Sometimes on old master brake cylinders while manually bleeding the brakes (two person pump method)
the seals inside the MBC could be damaged. They did not last for ever.
If seals are damaged brake fluid rins out at the lower side of the MBC flange.
After that the brake booster housing lost the paint and get rusty downwards.


The first time i used this tool i thought that it was a good idea for the bleeding process as a single person.
But i recognized that the bleeding srew adaptor sucks air inside, i think air was also sucking through the bleeding screw threads.
So i changed a big amount of brake fluid but the air bubbles do not stop and no better brake feeling.
The best way for bleeding is pressurized brake fluid taken to the MBC.

But all that didn't fix your problem, so what could cause this dead zone.
If the push pin of the brake booster is aligned properly to the master brake cylinder, the brake booster valve and the vacuum tube is ok,
no leaking brake pistons or leaking master brake cylinder then I would say that is a rubber brake line issue.

The brakes have felt exactly the same since I got the truck, and didn't change at all after flushing the system.

I'm not sure that it matters if you get bubbles due to air from the vacuum adaptor or through the bleeder valve threads. Ultimately it is still pulling a vacuum on the fluid in the system and as long as you shut the valve while the vacuum is still strong no air should get back into the lines.

Zero brake fluid leaks. The level has stayed constant, and where it has dropped due to pad wear, it has gone back up upon pad replacement.

Regarding the lines, I have a single hard line running down the frame on the driver's side. This turns into a short run of reinforced soft line that goes into a junction. A soft line goes to the driver's side rear caliper and a hard line takes it across the axle to the passenger side rear, that also has a soft hose for the last 12 inches.

All these lines are hard and look good to me. No bulges or anything.

 

[410Fortune]

There are 5 soft lines
One at each caliper
and the rubber line that drops down from the frame rail to the distribution block on the rear axle

Skyjacker and others make nice braided lines for this application

Master cylinders do wear out

Changing the length of the pushrod from booster to mc adjusts the front to rear bias but will not fix a dead zone

 

[Fix4Dirt]

Wondering what kind of brake pedal feel / travel is typical of 2nd gen?

Reading some conflicting things from past discussions on here.

Whenever I drive a modern car I'm always surprised how instant and firm the brake pedal is. Is it possible to get a 98 Explorer to that same level?

My brake pedal always travels about 2 or 3 inches before brake force is felt. It is not spongey once resistance starts, it is strong, consistent and won't continue to drop.

Recently vacuum flushed / bled in order:
- RR
- LR
- RF
- LF

Fair amount of air was getting sucked in through the threads on the bleeder screw, but I carried on until the fluid was totally clear on each caliper. Tightened the bleed nipple with strong vacuum still pulling.

Fluid looks great but the brake feel is exactly the same, honestly.

Reading some stuff about ABS pump bleeding, and master cylinder adjustment rod.

I use ForScan Lite, and it looks like I can run the ABS self test, but I'm not sure that's the same as running the bleed procedure on it.

Is this just how it is on these trucks?

On free ForScan I could bleed it iirc