What's bad: Ignition switch, lock cylinder, or neutral safety switch?

[84FLH]

Hi everyone.

2000 Mountaineer. 4.0 SOHC. 418,000 miles on orig ignition/key and transmission.

Symptoms
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1) Headlights turn on by themselves when key turned to ON position and while headlight switch on dash is in off position.

2) Headlights stay on when key turned to START and truck is running. This is with dash headlight switch still in off position.

3) When arriving at destination, the only way to turn headlights off is to move key to ACC position. About 1 second after key put in ACC position I hear a click from steering column area and headlights go off.

4) I always keep dial switch for dash display in OFF position. Now however, when I roll dial switch to brighten the dash display, the dome light turns on. When I roll dial switch to off position, dome light turns off.

5) Am now getting intermittent no crank/no solenoid click condition. Sometimes I wait 10 minutes and then the truck fires right up.

During these no crank/no solenoid click conditions I have full power to locks, lights, radio, etc.

Is this condition an indication of bad transmission neutral safety switch?
-----

A Motorcraft ignition lock cylinder is on order from Rock Auto. But is that what's bad, or is the ignition switch bad? Or transmission neutral safety 5....or combination of same?

Reading this forum I learned the lock cylinder and ignition switch are two different things.

Thanks to everyone.

 

[410Fortune]

Hmmmmm

Well it actually sounds like you have a bad starter relay
There is a relay in the power box under the hood for the starter circuit. Relays wear out

It could be the neutral safety switch also, stopping the starter from turning. Next time it happens try moving the shifter to neutral and then hit the starter

The headlight staying on seems like it could be your auto lights on the rear view mirror is the controls. Try unplugging the rear view mirror and see if the auto lights quit staying on
The mirrors have a very sensitive switch in them and when it fails you can no longer turn off the auto lights

Otherwise it seems like your cargo lamp / dimmer switch is working just fine

I don’t suspect the key /
Tumbler or ignition switch

 

[amj441]

I agree with 410, sounds like either the neutral safety switch or the relay, you can have an assistant help and turn the key to crank and probe at the relay connector with a test light and see if you get the "crank" signal from the key.

As for the roll switch, my dome lights always come on in any position other than off IF one of the doors is open/rear glass. my rear glass is starting to act finicky and says its open sometimes.

 

[84FLH]

Fortune,

Thank you. When you said "hit the starter" did you mean turn the key to START position or tap the starter with a hammer?

Would a bad starter relay cause headlights to come on when I turn key to RUN (not START) position?

amj,

So *that's* why the dome light goes on! My rear hatch doesn't fully close and door open light's been constant on since the hatch was tweaked.

 

[amj441]

Would a bad starter relay cause headlights to come on when I turn key to RUN (not START) position?

No, he meant that the rearview mirror (that holds all of the auto headlights on and off stuff in it) may be defective and is stuck on. thats why the headlights come on.

 

[84FLH]

No, he meant that the rearview mirror (that holds all of the auto headlights on and off stuff in it) may be defective and is stuck on. thats why the headlights come on.

Oh, now I understand. Thank you. Will try unplugging the mirror.

 

[84FLH]

Update (still not fixed)

I found the starter/ignition switch relay in PDB. It has exact same part number and exact same spade configuration as fuel pump relay. I swapped the relays with each other, then turned ignition key. Got a very weak, half second turnover of engine, then nothing; except interior lights, radio, power windows, etc all worked.

Next I inspected the 50a red fuse in front location of PDB. It was intact but I swapped it with another 50a fuse anyway, then tried to start engine. Nothing. Not even solenoid clicking.

After that I put truck in neutral and tried to start vehicle. Nothing. Not even solenoid clicking. Just soft clicking of key in ignition lock cylinder.

My starter is oil soaked as is (what I think is) the trans neutral switch. I saw no visible defects or damage to neutral switch connections or starter connections. I had no test light and no one to turn key on while I tapped starter. Next I'll look up how to jump solenoid to start this tired old beast, so I can have a driveable vehicle if I need it.

My ignition lock cylinder came in today from Rock Auto. Might as well replace it on Saturday, unless I find a different fix tomorrow after work.

Thanks Fortune and amj441 for your help today.

 

[DintDobbs]

@84FLH Here to verify what you've already been told. You're on the right track so far.

1) Headlights turn on by themselves when key turned to ON position and while headlight switch on dash is in off position.

2) Headlights stay on when key turned to START and truck is running. This is with dash headlight switch still in off position.

3) When arriving at destination, the only way to turn headlights off is to move key to ACC position. About 1 second after key put in ACC position I hear a click from steering column area and headlights go off.

These things are normal age-related misbehavior for any 2nd-gen Explorers (and equivalent year Mountaineers) due to the broken switch on the rear-view mirror, as you have been told. No features of the vehicle are malfunctioning, only the disable switch is malfunctioning. I personally find the feature useful, but if you don't like it, unplugging the mirror switch is the way to disable it.

4) I always keep dial switch for dash display in OFF position. Now however, when I roll dial switch to brighten the dash display, the dome light turns on. When I roll dial switch to off position, dome light turns off.

I don't know for absolutely certain that mine is functioning correctly, but I thought that the way you described is the way it's intended to work. It should have two "click" stops at the high-brightness end IIRC, one for maximum brightness level with cabin lights off, and one after that for maximum brightness level with cabin lights on. Any door ajar, including the tail gate, will activate the dome lights for IIRC 45 minutes, after which they will be turned off to save battery power. A damaged or unsecured door switch will cause the cabin lights to come on.

Unless you're saying that the cabin lights are ON in all dial positions except for OFF... in which case I'm still going to say that I suspect the door switch as the culprit. Many have had issues with the door switches (some accident-related, others defective, others wear out with age) but only a handful of people have issues with the dimmer dial, in the 30 years these trucks have been running the streets. It's not off the table, but by far tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

Why would the starter be oil-soaked? I know it's a high-mileage vehicle, but if there's oil where there shouldn't be, there will be problems there shouldn't be. Any wiring harnesses that have oil in them should be suspect; oil intrusion in wiring harnesses can lead to short circuits and fires. You're experiencing malfunctions already - they might be safe to day, but don't press your luck.

Make sure you inspect those starter wires closely, particularly if the starter has been replaced before. Those wires are fairly unprotected under there, and they can corrode and disconnect without human intervention. Seen it more than once.

 

[84FLH]

Thanks, DD.

Yes, cabin lights are ON with dial switch in all positions except OFF pos. That must be due to a non-fully closing rear hatch that's a bit tweaked from rolling backwards into a parking barrier. Or damaged rear hatch light switch. I'm glad amj441 pointed that out. For over a year I've cursed the poor rotary dial, lol.

There's more to the headlight issue than them simply turning on when key in ON position and dashboard headlight switch in OFF position. The other part of the story is the headlights sometimes turn themselves off as I'm driving to work at zero dark thirty. This is with headlight dash switch still in OFF position. When that happens I turn the dash switch to the on position and finish my drive to the joint. Upon parking I turn the headlight switch to off and the headlights go off.

Because the headlights turn themselves off every once in a while, while I'm driving with the headlight dash switch in the off position, this may indicate something other than a faulty rear view mirror headlight switch; unless Mrs. Meir's ghost is messing with the switch.

Tonight I went outside at 6 pm to verify my RV mirror switch is in the far left ("off") position it's been in for the past 15 years. I then ran into a neighbor and we sat down to solve the neighborhood's problems. Never checked the switch but I'd be relieved to know the switch is the culprit, though, as it'd certainly narrow the investigatory field.

Starter and cables oil soaked, not covered, because the 419,000 mile valve covers leak, as does the front timing cover(s), and rear of engine.

 

[84FLH]

"Any wiring harnesses that have oil in them should be suspect; oil intrusion in wiring harnesses can lead to short circuits and fires. You're experiencing malfunctions already - they might be safe to day, but don't press your luck."

Thank you for this pearl of knowledge, DD.

 

[amj441]

Thanks, DD.

Yes, cabin lights are ON with dial switch in all positions except OFF pos. That must be due to a non-fully closing rear hatch that's a bit tweaked from rolling backwards into a parking barrier. Or damaged rear hatch light switch. I'm glad amj441 pointed that out. For over a year I've cursed the poor rotary dial, lol.

There's more to the headlight issue than them simply turning on when key in ON position and dashboard headlight switch in OFF position. The other part of the story is the headlights sometimes turn themselves off as I'm driving to work at zero dark thirty. This is with headlight dash switch still in OFF position. When that happens I turn the dash switch to the on position and finish my drive to the joint. Upon parking I turn the headlight switch to off and the headlights go off.

Because the headlights turn themselves off every once in a while, while I'm driving with the headlight dash switch in the off position, this may indicate something other than a faulty rear view mirror headlight switch; unless Mrs. Meir's ghost is messing with the switch.

Tonight I went outside at 6 pm to verify my RV mirror switch is in the far left ("off") position it's been in for the past 15 years. I then ran into a neighbor and we sat down to solve the neighborhood's problems. Never checked the switch but I'd be relieved to know the switch is the culprit, though, as it'd certainly narrow the investigatory field.

Starter and cables oil soaked, not covered, because the 419,000 mile valve covers leak, as does the front timing cover(s), and rear of engine.

we had a tahoe here at work for intermittent starting, it had a bad rear main and valve cover leak and even with a new starter that oil just soaks into and ruins the new starter. (not my call, one of the guys in the shop). stopping whatever oil leak that drips onto the starter is where id start. Especially since oil is an electrical insulator (at least at 12v) and not conductive, its not gonna let you start the vehicle. you could jump the starter with a screwdriver but it wont do much more than using the key.

 

[84FLH]

Thanks, amj. Will be looking it all over (and under) tomorrow.