Alternative to a Torsion Twist?

[gavin]

So I've been thinking... no clue if it'll work or not, as I haven't taken a good look at the lower control arms and whatnot.
But here's an idea... we all know that doing a torsion twist is a cheap way to get a couple inches of lift in the front, but of course get a harsh ride.
Is it possible to just lower the control arm?
What I mean by that, is increase the downward angle.
Basically, remove torsion bar, angle arm down a notch, line it back up with the torsion bar, and reinstall?
Since the end of the bar is hexagonal shaped, I think it might work.. but I'm not positive? Any ideas?
I hope that made sense.

 

[TarHeel085]

thats pretty much what your already doing with a TT when you tighten the bolt it effictively turns the bar and increases the downward angle of the LCA.

 

[gavin]

but what I'm wanting to do/accomplish... is get the same amount of lift, without getting the harsh ride.

 

[MountaineerGreen]

Hummm that is an interesting idea. I hadnt really thought of that. I dont know how hard it would be to remove and re-position the tortion bar, but it would be worth a shot. As long as the lift wasn't too much for the cv's, the ride could be softer with the same amount of lift. If you werent so far away id volunteer to help. Let everyone know if you do it and how it turns out.

 

[fordX302]

if you do that, u still put a great amout of pressure on the bar, the ride will be the same. or possible worse....

 

[gavin]

if you do that, u still put a great amout of pressure on the bar, the ride will be the same. or possible worse....

how so? the only reason the ride harshens is because it's not allowed as much movement at the adjuster end; has nothing to do with the lower control arm.
You're basically just lowering the arm, without touching the torsion bar, so how could it worsen the ride?

edit:
you're basically increasing the ride height by increasing the spring rate.
By increasing the angle on the LCA without touching the torsion bar, I don't see how it can make the ride worse; the spring rate isn't getting touched.
The only downside I can see... from one pic I looked at, it looks like the torsion bar may not be a symmetrical hexagon, and may be more oblong. But I haven't actually looked at the bar or the control arm (I'll take a peek at the one I got in the garage).
Ok that wasn't the downside... I'm just not sure how much of a lift it will create if it will work... it may be too great, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking for opinions.

 

[gavin]

Hummm that is an interesting idea. I hadnt really thought of that. I dont know how hard it would be to remove and re-position the tortion bar, but it would be worth a shot. As long as the lift wasn't too much for the cv's, the ride could be softer with the same amount of lift. If you werent so far away id volunteer to help. Let everyone know if you do it and how it turns out.

I probably will be in a few weeks... gotta replace a lower control arm anyway (the balljoint hole egged out).. so I'll see what I can get away with then.
Luckily I have a company vehicle for work, so I don't need my Sploder

 

[Doubt Incarnate]

the hexagonal shape may be a problem. 6 sides, 60 degrees. i doubt your getting a 60 degree twist on the adjuster if you crank it down. but i havent been ther done that so i may very well be wrong. the worse ride most likely comes from the downward limit of the suspensons travel. once again r/c cars are a good model, if the suspension cant flex enough to drop the wheel into imperfections and such, the whole vehical will move, somtimes sacrificing control, not good with 4000+lbs, the trick is to allow enough flex in both directions to allow the tires to raise and drop according to changes in the road surface. technicaly, tightening the adjuster doesnt, or shouldnt, put anymore tension on the torsion bars, it merely changes the angle of the arms up front. the bars will always be under Xlbs of force, just closer to the limit of downward travel.

 

[gavin]

the hexagonal shape may be a problem. 6 sides, 60 degrees. i doubt your getting a 60 degree twist on the adjuster if you crank it down.

quite possibly.. but after thinking about it, the torsion bars won't be tightened, meaning they will have the same spring rate as stock, meaning it will settle more.
I dunno... just got ideas runnin through my head. I'll just hafta see.

 

[FROADER]

Even if you can do that, it's the same exact thing. You're still twisting the bar the same...

 

[gijoecam]

They're right.... angling the arm down a notch on the other end probably wouldn't be possible to begin with as the extra pre-load would likely put the suspension at the down-travel limit to begin with.

It makes no difference which end of the torsion bar you twist further, the end result is the same: More pre-load on the torsion bar.

I doubt you'd be able to get the thing to move the suspension off the shock bottoms. I think the max swing on the stock adjusters is roughly 30 degrees or so. I suspect that to go a full 60 degrees would fully extend the front shocks just sitting there.

-Joe

 

[gluvsave35]

is get the same amount of lift, without getting the harsh ride.

im doing a tt and i was wondering before i do it how harsh is the ride
give some details!!!!
thanks

 

[SkanlaxJMO]

....if you want a smoother ride with a lift and dont want to TT you could look into the RCD kit.

 

[Doubt Incarnate]

More pre-load on the torsion bar.-Joe

there shouldnt be more pre load. same weight on the same bars, just a different angle.

 

[gijoecam]

Your ball joints will never make 60 additional degrees of angle, so it's a moot point, not to mention what it would do to the steering geometry.

I'm quite sure that the pre-load that the factory torsion keys apply to the torsion bars is nowhere near 60 degrees.

However, *if* the torsion keys rotated that end of the torsion bar 60 degrees when you pre-load them, then yes, rotating the keys would accomplish that.

Why bother yanking the control arms though? Just index the key an extra flat on the back side. It's just not going to happen.... Look at the difference in angle that provides 2" of lift on the re-indexed torsion keys you see all over Ebay. If that's 30 degrees off of stock, (and I doubt it is), and that gets you 2", going 60 degrees *might* get you 4", at which point, you'll have zero down-travel left in the 8" stroke on the shocks.

None of this is even taking into account the atrocious steering geometry you'd have at that point....

Not gonna happen...

-Joe

edit: Just thinking a little more.... from a strictly physical standpoint....

The position of the control arm is a function of the torque applied to it to resist the force of the front of the vehicle. To maintain the control arm in a given position, takes a certain amount of torque on the control arm. That torque is provided by the torsion bar. Regardless of where the hex is indexed, it'll take the exact same amount of torque to hold the control arm in place at that same angle. Therefore, even if you move the control arm 60 degrees, you will need to apply the same amount of torque to the other end of the control arm as if you had moved the torsion key 60 degrees. Make sense?

Many people think that the suspension is stiffer when you crank the torsion bars. That is absolutely false. The ride feels different due to the suspension geometry, but the spring stiffness is unchanged. The torsion bars have more preload on them, but the stiffness of the torsion bar has not changed.

Pretend, for a second, that you have coil springs on the front. Twisting the torsion bars is the same thing as moving the springs downward with respect to the frame. You have gained ride height, but the spring rate has not been altered. Spring rate in force per disdance has not changed. Spring position (or preload for a torsion spring) has.

Make sense?

edited again....

Think about it: What's the difference?

Let's say, for a minute, that it's possible.

Change 1: Remove the control arm, index the control arm 60 degrees on the torsion bar, then reinstall it.

Change 2: Leave the control arm where it is, but turn the torsion key adjusters such that you add 60 degrees of rotation to the back of the torsion bar.

What's the difference? In either case, the torsion bar has an additional 60 degrees of preload on it. The control arm ends up in the same place, and in either case, the suspension surely sits at the bottom of its down-travel.

-Joe

 

[droolmonkey]

why not move both down?

 

[gijoecam]

why not move both down?

both? Both what?

 

[FROADER]

The best part is that this thread is still going. Just twist the torsions and be done with it. The only way you'll keep a decent ride and lift it is to buy a lift kit...

 

[CDW6212R]

I thought that your idea was to physically remount the control arm. I turned one torsion bar in my control arm to see how much height change there would be. Massive is a minor description. The 60 degree choices force the bar to only go into the arm at the stock orientation.

Joe is correct, the torsion bar controls height, and adjustments still produce the same spring rate. The control arms are not long enough to produce any decent ride to begin with, and height changes make the ride worse.

The stock suspension front and back is barely adequate for street use. It doesn't allow any great ride at altered heights, up or down. I'd like to lower my body another inch or so, but the CV joints and suspension travel will not allow it. I don't do the young kids slow driving style thing. I drive over bumps at speeds that I want to drive, it's the suspension's job to handle it.

The entire suspension should be redesigned, day dream about that. Good luck though,

 

[gavin]

....if you want a smoother ride with a lift and dont want to TT you could look into the RCD kit.

if only I had $2000 whatever to spend on that.. lol.

and this is the stuff I was looking for. So basically what ya'll are saying is that regardless, it'll do the same thing. And that it will angle the arm an extra 60* which I agree is too much for the CVs and whatnot.

and CDW6212R, thank you for your input. If you tried it, and it just won't work, that's what I was looking for to begin with.

Thanks for all the info guys