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Another OHV M90 build




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Rocket, I agree completely. You guys have far more experience than I do, and James has my logs. I'm sure with those logs James will either massage the tune file, or tell me what I need to do mechanically.

On another note...My supercharger pulley is being polished by my hood insulation. I cut the insulation off in that area. Definitely no room for an inter-cooler. Tight fit under the hood. I bet if I put a slightly smaller pulley on there, I'd have a bit more room. hahaha......I'll wait till things are sorted out and settled down before I make a decision like that.

I think I still have a hard-on from driving it last night. :D
 






Ok, James is wondering if my TB flap is closing all the way. Confirmed ok. Even backed screw out to make sure with the truck running. TB flap is closed.

Now, last night when my truck was idling fine and I thought it might have been that dpfe egr hose. Nope, I unplugged the hose to see today, and idle stayed high. Obviously a coincidence.

I pulled my tb off, and changed the idle control valve (using permatex blue for a gasket) to the one originally on my truck. No change in idle.
I unplugged my idle control valve, no change in idle.
Checked for vacuum leaks again. I'm certain there are none. Good solid gaskets everywhere. I could use permtex on both sides of every gasket (Currently I am using it on only one side), but then things become difficult to take apart.

I gave up for now. I installed the tune James sent me, locking my truck in high gear to do my wot pull.
I found an empty stretch of road, and away I went. A/F stayed around 10.5. I stopped logging while I was slowing down. I reached a stop, and guess what?

Idle was fine again. WTF? In and out of gear a few times, and idle is still fine. I shut the engine down, and re-start. Idle is high again. Whats going on?

I switched tunes back to the latest that James sent me that doesn't lock the transmission in high gear, and headed down the highway to work.
My truck stayed in high idle mode all the way to work.

Is it possible that my truck thinks its always warming up and in high idle? That would be governed by coolant temp, correct? By the logs, the temp readings are correct for coolant temp.

Suggestions on what to try next anyone? I don't mind troubleshooting, as long as if something makes no change, I can put it back exactly as it was.
 






What about your TPS? Also with the hood situation, I would say ditch the stock and go to explorerexpress.com or have someone build you one. I want something particular for my truck and still can't find anyone who will do it.

Side note: fixed my bad volt. regulator and we are back to chugging along. next is the a/c compressor.. (bah what a money pit, be glad yours is a 2000 not a 96).

Also, boost does that to you in regard to the feeling down below. Just wait till you baffle yourself and walk away from a "sports car". Heh, I eat civics for fun to say the least.
 






Hoods fine. It fits..Just. If I go with an inter-cooler, I'll have to do something else, or do a body lift. I'm good there. This darn idle, on the other hand.

The tps is at .6 volts with throttle body closed. A definitely not causing the issue. Apparently with my year, you don't have to worry about getting to .96 volts with my ecu. The computer just watches for change. I can't completely confirm this. If the TPS was over 1 volt, I'd be inclined to adjust it to make it lower.
 






Yea.. my year has had quite the bugs to work through. I have this issue and I am not sure if its my converter (but I am starting to suspect it). Its stall is just too high for the truck to figure out for everyday driving. It has a 5yr warranty so I plan on making time to have it taken out and cut open for inspection. In which case I will obviously request a lower stall, stock is 1900 and I am at 2200. think 2000 or stock is more than enough. I say all this now, because its not really documented on the forum and I know if I had a build thread I'd know exactly how much time its taken me to get here to realize higher stalls are for race cars, drag cars, mud trucks.
 






Whether or not the bypass is open has nothing to do with the amount of airflow making it past the closed throttle blade. Throttle blade position and the IAC valve controls idle, not the blower bypass valve. The engine can only suck in as much air as those two allow. That is why if the IAC dies then the engine will cut out unless you lightly press the gas pedal to open the throttle body because the engine is being starved for air now that the IAC isn't allowing that extra airflow through to maintain idle. Also the blower will not build boost at idle even without the vacuum bypass valve not working right because the engine is still in vacuum; as can be seen by looking at the boost gauge and seeing it in the vacuum area measured in inches of mercury. It is a vacuum bypass, not a boost bypass. The intention of putting that into the system of a roots blower is to increase off-boost efficiency by engine vacuum sucking the diaphragm which pulls the bypass valve blade open while the throttle blade is closed (or close to it) so that air can bypass the blower which doesn't allow it to become a restriction in airflow or needlessly raise IAT's while spinning at lower speeds going through a heatsoaked blower. If the blower were able to create boost at idle then the vacuum bypass valve would be useless since it operates off of vacuum to pull it open to allow it to bypass.
mine is called a "boost bypass valve"bbv and is opened by vac/held open and closed by boost/loss of vac.its there to allow boost to to leak back into the manifold getting recycled into the blower.with it closed the motor will not idle right and wile cruising it will be boosting when its not needed.on a cammed truck and the bbv closed the ecm adjust the idle higher till the blower makes boost and is not restricting the motor
 






I will try to check the valve. Im not sure how though, other than taking theSC off and manually keying the valve. It's burried way back there.
 






I will try to check the valve. Im not sure how though, other than taking theSC off and manually keying the valve. It's burried way back there.

on mine there is a arm coming off the side and as you rev the motor you can see it opening and closing.also mines uses two lines,one for vac and one for boost.it matters witch line is on witch nipple.witch bypass are you using?
mine looks like this
http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/386-EATON-Bypass-Valve.aspx
 






JD, I have no clue. That looks like the one, but I didn't pay any attention to it.

What you are saying makes sense though. I'll pull it and see if I can find an issue. Im not sure if I will be able to see it operate, but I'll try before I pull it out.
 






JD, I have no clue. That looks like the one, but I didn't pay any attention to it.

What you are saying makes sense though. I'll pull it and see if I can find an issue. Im not sure if I will be able to see it operate, but I'll try before I pull it out.

yours may be totally different,may be worth a shot tho.here is a little diagram to show the bypass IS a boost bypass not vacuum bypass like other have said.just want to make sure the correct info is given
It is a vacuum bypass, not a boost bypass.

http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/powertrain/boost_bypass.htm
 






I'll go look now. A valve issue makes sense. The issue is intermittent (The idle is way high far more than its correct). James is sure of his tuning, and I'm sure there is no vac leaks. If the M90 were always boosting, and the valve not opening, that would make a high idle.

Only thing is wouldn't I see even higher vacuum? I show about 18lbs. I'll go see if I can feel the valve actuator shaft and try to get it to key on and off by reving the motor.
 






I'll go look now. A valve issue makes sense. The issue is intermittent (The idle is way high far more than its correct). James is sure of his tuning, and I'm sure there is no vac leaks. If the M90 were always boosting, and the valve not opening, that would make a high idle.

Only thing is wouldn't I see even higher vacuum? I show about 18lbs. I'll go see if I can feel the valve actuator shaft and try to get it to key on and off by reving the motor.

You would see lower vac.its not that its boosting at idle but restricting/straining the motor at idle making it hard to idle.when the ecm sees that its having problems idling i would think it would raise the rpms till the sc makes enough air or motor makes enough power for the motor to run smooth.again just guessing as i know NOTHING about tuning or ecms.
 






Here's what I found:
The valve opens when there is more vac after the M90. I could suck on the hose (No comments please) and the butterfly would open. the end I was sucking on ran post sc.
The vac line running to the valve body that pulls the butterfly open was very loose on one end. I used a clamp to tighten it up, re-checked everything for tightness before, and during puting things back together.

Start it up, and........


Same problem. High idle.
 






Here's what I found:
The valve opens when there is more vac after the M90. I could suck on the hose (No comments please) and the butterfly would open. the end I was sucking on ran post sc.
The vac line running to the valve body that pulls the butterfly open was very loose on one end. I used a clamp to tighten it up, re-checked everything for tightness before, and during puting things back together.

Start it up, and........


Same problem. High idle.

Well was worth a shot.
 







The IAC and TB that you are using can have a large affect on how much above the "base idle", set without IAC being plugged in, that the IAC can pull the idle up when plugged back in. If you use too much of the IAC's duty cycle to get back up to the requested idle point in the tune then you will have less remaining duty cycle range for the IAC to be able to bring idle up beyond that point. This is the whole reason why I mentioned logging IAC counts with the IAC plugged in while adjusting the screw so that you aren't flying blind while performing the adjustment.
 






So, what I am seeing is that the IAC must be closing all the way, and still unable to bring idle down to where it is set.
Question is, why? The iac isnt bypassing any air, but too much air is gunning thru the intake.

I better double check the two wires I extended with an ohm meter. I soldered all connections and used heat shrink tubing. I'll go check that.

tb is definately closing. the bypass valve works (even though I dont quite understand it). Im guessing its designed to be open in low rpm conditions with no boost (idle, at least when the idle isnt 2500 rpm).

I truely do not have any vac leaks. Its beyond me. There has to be a reason.
 






mine is called a "boost bypass valve"bbv and is opened by vac/held open and closed by boost/loss of vac.its there to allow boost to to leak back into the manifold getting recycled into the blower.with it closed the motor will not idle right and wile cruising it will be boosting when its not needed.on a cammed truck and the bbv closed the ecm adjust the idle higher till the blower makes boost and is not restricting the motor

A boost bypass is meant to bypass excess boost from hammering the TB when transitioning from WOT to idle and is placed pre-throttlebody. A vacuum bypass, as displayed on positive displacement blowers, is placed post-throttlebody and open while the engine is pulling vacuum at or near idle due to the TB blade being closed. The blower cannot make any boost, with or without a vacuum bypass valve in the mix, because it is still pulling from a vacuum on the inlet side due to the closed throttle blade. It is simple physics dealing with pressure ratios man. When you are WOT with a PD blower that has a vacuum bypass valve the blade is held closed by a spring to allow the blower to generate boost. Boost does sort of assist in holding it closed too but really all the boost does is make the valve snap closed more quickly is the line is plumbed to the lower manifold to see boost in addition to vac. Another reason the valve is closed is because there is no vacuum to pull against the diaphragm to rotate the bypass valve blade open at that time. When you let off the gas pedal the throttle body blade shuts right away, and in less than an instant the engine transitions to vacuum even while RPM's are still high. There is no excess boost to bypass since the engine is already in vacuum. Besides, the boost has nothing closed to prevent it from continuing to travel into the intake ports and opening valves of the cylinder heads so excess boost cannot be generated and thus need to be bypassed. Again, it is physics. If there is no post-blower obstruction present then there is no way to have a pressure spike when getting off of the gas. Thus if there is no chance that a pressure/boost spike can occur then that valve isn't exactly being used to bypass boost now is it? So one would surmise that perhaps it is being used for something else. That something else is what I already outlined in my previous post regarding allowing vacuum to equalize between the post-TB/pre-blower upper intake manifold and the post-blower lower intake manifold. Allowing this vacuum to bypass the blower and equalize completely is the goal otherwise you would have higher vac pre-blower and less vac post-blower. Though it will be less vac post-blower then pre-blower it still will not be generating boost since it is having to pull from a vacuum to even come up to pressure equilibrium, let alone surpass that to get into boost. Again, when the valve is open and thus bypassing; the airflow is traveling from upper intake manifold, through the bypass valve, and to lower intake manifold hence the reason it is a vacuum bypass valve. If the blower were boosting then this airflow direction would be reversed and the valve could sort of be called a boost bypass valve. But it is not.

There is allot of misunderstanding regarding these valves and their operation. What some may think is interchangeable really is not. But after so many people get ideas stuck in their heads sometimes it is just easier to use their lingo when speaking to them than correcting them in that they are actually talking about a vacuum bypass and not boost bypass. This is why you see some companies referring to them as a boost bypass valve. Something similar happens when people who have turbo systems refer to their boost bypass valve as a BOV (blow off valve). While both do vent excess boost so turbo and TB damage don't occur, one recirculates it back into the pre-turbo intake tract while the other blows it off to atmosphere. While both valves are similar or even the exact same in construction, the way they are plumbed and used is not interchangeable especially if you are running a draw-through MAFS setup. If you want to call the valve that is on the bottom of your Eaton M90 blower a boost bypass then be my guest, but that isn't the operation it really is performing when operating. If by now you don't understand how that valve works, why it works that way, and why it is not a boost bypass valve then I don't know what to tell you at this point man. I have beaten the dead horse on this so much and taken this thread so far off topic in order for you to understand it that it just isn't worth it if you cannot get past yourself and pay attention to someone who has light years more knowledge on this and the experience to back it up. There is a reason I have been in a field of engineering for the better part of 20 years and why I am also transitioning over from my previous specialty to mechanical engineering with a focus on automotive and robotics. If you don't want to trust what I say then that is cool, but you cannot refute physics. Like I said, look at how pressure ratios work and think about how the vacuum would work taking that into account with an Eaton blown vehicle at idle.

I am burnt out on explaining this stuff. Sorry I took your thread off topic Don.
 






A boost bypass is meant to bypass excess boost from hammering the TB when transitioning from WOT to idle and is placed pre-throttlebody. A vacuum bypass, as displayed on positive displacement blowers, is placed post-throttlebody and open while the engine is pulling vacuum at or near idle due to the TB blade being closed. The blower cannot make any boost, with or without a vacuum bypass valve in the mix, because it is still pulling from a vacuum on the inlet side due to the closed throttle blade. It is simple physics dealing with pressure ratios man. When you are WOT with a PD blower that has a vacuum bypass valve the blade is held closed by a spring to allow the blower to generate boost. Boost does sort of assist in holding it closed too but really all the boost does is make the valve snap closed more quickly is the line is plumbed to the lower manifold to see boost in addition to vac. Another reason the valve is closed is because there is no vacuum to pull against the diaphragm to rotate the bypass valve blade open at that time. When you let off the gas pedal the throttle body blade shuts right away, and in less than an instant the engine transitions to vacuum even while RPM's are still high. There is no excess boost to bypass since the engine is already in vacuum. Besides, the boost has nothing closed to prevent it from continuing to travel into the intake ports and opening valves of the cylinder heads so excess boost cannot be generated and thus need to be bypassed. Again, it is physics. If there is no post-blower obstruction present then there is no way to have a pressure spike when getting off of the gas. Thus if there is no chance that a pressure/boost spike can occur then that valve isn't exactly being used to bypass boost now is it? So one would surmise that perhaps it is being used for something else. That something else is what I already outlined in my previous post regarding allowing vacuum to equalize between the post-TB/pre-blower upper intake manifold and the post-blower lower intake manifold. Allowing this vacuum to bypass the blower completely is the goal. Again, when the valve is open and thus bypassing; the airflow is traveling from upper intake manifold, through the bypass valve, and to lower intake manifold hence the reason it is a vacuum bypass valve. If the blower were boosting then this airflow direction would be reversed and the valve could sort of be called a boost bypass valve. But it is not.

There is allot of misunderstanding regarding these valves and their operation. What some may think is interchangeable really is not. But after so many people get ideas stuck in their heads sometimes it is just easier to use their lingo when speaking to them than correcting them in that they are actually talking about a vacuum bypass and not boost bypass. This is why you see some companies referring to them as a boost bypass valve. Something similar happens when people who have turbo systems refer to their boost bypass valve as a BOV (blow off valve). While both do vent excess boost so turbo and TB damage don't occur, one recirculates it back into the pre-turbo intake tract while the other blows it off to atmosphere. While both valves are similar or even the exact same in construction, the way they are plumbed and used is not interchangeable especially if you are running a draw-through MAFS setup. If you want to call the valve that is on the bottom of your Eaton M90 blower a boost bypass then be my guest, but that isn't the operation it really is performing when operating. If by now you don't understand how that valve works, why it works that way, and why it is not a boost bypass valve then I don't know what to tell you at this point man. I have beaten the dead horse on this so much and taken this thread so far off topic in order for you to understand it that it just isn't worth it if you cannot get past yourself and pay attention to someone who has light years more knowledge on this and the experience to back it up. There is a reason I have been in a field of engineering for the better part of 20 years and why I am also transitioning over from my previous specialty to mechanical engineering with a focus on automotive and robotics. If you don't want to trust what I say then that is cool, but you cannot refute physics. Like I said, look at how pressure ratios work and think about how the vacuum would work taking that into account with an Eaton blown vehicle at idle.

I am burnt out on explaining this stuff. Sorry I took your thread off topic Don.

Isnt there allways vac between the tb and sc? If so wouldnt it keep the valve open all the time? Also you only explained how it works when at idle,not wile cruising.
 



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the bypass valve works (even though I dont quite understand it). Im guessing its designed to be open in low rpm conditions with no boost (idle, at least when the idle isnt 2500 rpm).


The bypass valve will open and close proportionally to the amount of vacuum that its diaphragm is seeing. So at a complete idle with foot off the gas the valve will be wide open as long as your camshaft is allowing your engine to generate some decent vacuum. I doubt your cam is radical enough to not allow the engine to pull decent vac so don't worry there. Then when you get on the gas a little bit the engine vacuum decreases a little bit which then allows the vacuum bypass return spring to pull the valve closed a little bit. It still won't close all the way until you have opened the throttle blade far enough where the bypass return spring tension can overcome the vacuum being placed on the actuating diaphragm that was trying to hold the valve open.

Yes, the higher the idle the more airflow making it into the engine which means less vacuum, so in theory you could encounter a situation where the idle was so high due to the IAC being so far open where the engine cannot pull enough vac to keep the bypass valve open against the return spring pressure.
 






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