Apten chip ... sever disappointment | Page 2 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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Apten chip ... sever disappointment

MBrooks - Didn't expect a welcome party, but didn't expect to be questioned and attacked when I was offering the dyno numbers. It wasn't like I made some outlandish claim with no documentation.
 



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Not trying to be a d**k but, you should expect to get questioned. Anytime anyone posts "questionable" information, you will get questions. And I don't think anyone was really "attacking" you. Go to pirate4x4.com, they will show you an attack. We are very happy to have you as a part of the board. Everyone want's to find out as much info about our trucks and what mod actually do to them etc. Sometimes things can come out wrong. But...hang it out, there is TONS of useful information here, and a lot of great people too.
 






Hey Ron, were not trying to be nasty or anything. We just all did the group buy for the Apten chip, then on the day it closes someone posts that the numbers aren't great. So we were probably just unsure what to think.;)

Anyway. Welcome to the site.

Go to pirate4x4.com, they will show you an attack.

No crap. I just registered and lasted about 10 mins before I had enough of there $hit about me, my car, my website, and this site.
 






Ron,

I am looking at your data, and the Superchips run looks identical to the one you sent me when you were interested in a chip. Didn't you do a comparison run on the dyno? Without a direct swap-out comparison, the results are not going to be an accurate comparison. There are too many variables like fuel quality, vehicle engine temperature, and environmental variables that SAE doesn't account for enough to make a side by side comparison. It's also not accurate to take someone else's baseline dyno numbers, because every factory vehicle I have dynoed has had somewhat different results.

Look at the torque graph. See how above 4200 rpm the dashed yellow line
is above all the rest, even if by a slight amount? Since you calculate HP from torque, why is the dashed yellow line lower HP everywhere on the HP graph? Something seems wrong, as you cannot have the same or better torque and then less HP.

To prove this point, look at black magic's dyno chart, everywhere there is HP gain from the chipped run, there is also TQ gain. (I cut out all unnecessary parts of the chart to make it more readable)
dynorun.jpg


Also, your Superchips program is running your engine much leaner. We don't like to run much above low 13's:1 at WOT. There are several negative long term effects of running an engine too lean at WOT.

I did offer for you to do a free review, so if you are unsatisfied with the chip I'll be glad to pay shipping back. But to get a real fair comparison of the chips, they have to be done side by side at least twice, and the EEC needs to be reset between each run to clear adaptive learning. I have someone that I work with in Irving TX that may be able to help you at the dyno if you would like. I can also reflash the chip, but we won't lean out an engine past our safe levels just to make a few more HP. Our objective is to make the safest HP possible, and going much above the fuel curve you have with our chip is not ideal for long term. I see a few small places I can tweak, but overall the air/fuel is pretty close to what we want.

I apologize for the long message! I am not trying to be difficult or critical based on your results, but I want to be sure that all of the variables are setup correct to make an accurate comparison. If there is somewhere for improvements in our chip's performance programs I am open to look at it, but something about the current dyno comparisons doesn't measure up. Please don't take it as any type of attack or negative reflection on your efforts to make a dyno comparison. We do appreciate your willingness to get results and share them with everyone.

Thanks,
Brian Herron
 






Welcome and dyno location from Ron

Ron,

Just a quick note to let you know that most of the knowledgable guys on this board are very cool and it's a great resource. Glad to have you on board as well.

Great to see other dyno results. As someone mentioned in the BlackMagic Apten thread, the numbers put the sellers' claims to the test. I think everyone has been burned so many times by product claims that they (we) have a built in cynicism.

By the way, I'm over in Colleyville and am interested in where you got your dyno work done. I haven't looked yet to see if there is a way to disconnect the front two wheels on mine for dyno purposes, but there is bound to be a way and I'm ready to start throwing money in the X pit.
 






I wasn't trying to be overly sarcastic or a jerk about anything, if that's the way I came off. Sorry if you felt attacked by the members here. It's a very friendly site and has some of the most helpful peple on the net. Not only that we all own Explorers:cool:
 






Welcome Welcome

OK you may be disappointed with your results, but you are looking for additional results over another already tuned chip. This thread is really misleading to those looking for a chip who DO NOT already have a chip - People without an aftermarket chip are looking at impressive results judging from your graphs and figures.
The differences between Rons Superchip equipt and his Apten equipt runs are most likely within the tolerances of the dyno and operator of the dyno. The runs show 1/2% to a max of 4 or 5% difference in HP or torque in some cases. Anyone know the tolerance of a chassis dyno?

It would be great to see some improvement over the Superchip but if it was tuned for your combo why would you expect a great improvement- they use the same variables -correct? Maybe I dont know what the chip tuning is about, but fuel trims and timing etc are just that fuel and timing- if you had yours optimized to your engine with the Superchip why would you expect Apten to get any more optimized?

Maybe Im missing something...
 






Garyt - I use Speedworks in Lewisville (972-395-9844). They were the only ones I could find with an inground dyno. I couldn't get the ST up on any of the above ground dynos due to clearance. They also hold the DFW record for most hp dyno'd - just over 1,000 rwhp on a street legal '91 Mustang.

SteveVB - As stated before, the Superchip was customized after the intake/exhaust mods. I later added the MAF and Random Technology y-pipe and hi-flow cat. I couldn't get my Superchip distributor to answer regarding reprogramming the chip. Thus the interest in the Apten program. Since I sent the dyno run file to Apten prior to burning the chip, I guess that I was hoping for better initial results.

As Steve partially pointed out, I am likely running more 4.0 SOHC performance mods than most site members. I will require more tuning than a mostly stock X like BlackMagics.

Brian - I just sent you the additional data on the back-to-back Apten/Superchip run. I didn't bother to graph it because I don't trust the numbers. We had the time to properly reset the cpu and drive the ST with the Apten chip. After the first 2 dyno pulls with the Apten chip, we disconnected the battery for about 5 minutes, installed the Superchip, and restarted the cpu reset process. However, we couldn't complete the reset process by driving the ST which is why I don't trust the back-to-back numbers. When you are on a dyno, time is money and they won't let you unhook and return during your scheduled time. I may have access to a dyno, but I have to pay like everyone else.

The stock baseline numbers, although are not mine, represent a typical stock ST. The hp figure also hits dead on with the published stock hp less the 20% drivetrain loss guideline. So i do believe that it is revalent. In this case with the chips, I am not comparing against stock data. I am comparing the Apten dyno data against a previous run with the same mods, but a different chip and much higher ambient temperature.

I can't comment on the lean issue, but does the stock engine not run around a 14.5 ratio for emission purposes?

I hope that I've answered all the questions and we can address reprogramming the chip.
 






Originally posted by Ron Brezina


SteveVB - As stated before, the Superchip was customized after the intake/exhaust mods. I later added the MAF and Random Technology y-pipe and hi-flow cat. I couldn't get my Superchip distributor to answer regarding reprogramming the chip. Thus the interest in the Apten program. Since I sent the dyno run file to Apten prior to burning the chip, I guess that I was hoping for better initial results.

Ah that makes sense- I missed that you didnt have the chip optimized for the MAF and the exhaust work. Did you dyno between the intake/exhaust mods and the MAF, y pipe install- with or without the chip- may be the MAF and pipe didnt contribute to hp ( may have moved it on the power band though.

The EEC book I have has a range of 9-15:1 depending on inputs. 14.7:1 is complete combustion with lowest amount of emissions, 15:1 minimum fuel consumption, and most important 13.1:1 is max power.

Running lean at WOT is a really bad thing, and on my EEC-IV the stock puter wont go to stoic at WOT. You can run a bit more timing at WOT with a bit richer mix, and the stock tables add timing at WOT with enrichment. The 13.1 ratio is what you get with low manifold pressure and open throttle. + plus other inputs like temp etc. What am I saying? Yes your engine runs at 14.7:1 but only at certian times and conditions. Running richer is a bit safer(detonation - not audible), and to compensate the engine can use more timing (detonation risk reduced)

Well good luck with the tuning.
 






Stevevb - My dyno info is at Dead Link Removed
 






Ron,
From looking at the data you just sent me, it appears that the Apten chip made more HP and more torque than the Superchip did on the back to back comparison? Unless I am reading it wrong, that's what the data I just received shows.

There are a few things I wanted to discuss; one is the rather high air/fuel ratio with the Superchip. It is true that you want close to 14.7:1 at part throttle, but not at WOT. Emissions testing are done under load at part throttle, and WOT is not relevant. It is not good to run an engine that lean at WOT, regardless of if it is a race car or street car. That's too lean to make good power either.

When you drop the air/fuel down from the Superchips, the car is actually supposed to make more power and torque. I've been to the dyno a whole lot, and every time it has hit peak power right near the 13.1 - 13.2 range on a naturally aspirated engine.

Your second set of results that you just sent me personally shows what I was expecting to see. You can't take a car to the dyno two different times and expect to see the same results. In theory it should work, but in real life it just doesn't. If you are doing a comparison you have to do them side by side. There are a lot of other factors besides what SAE corrects for that can affect it. SAE does correct for ambient temperature.

Also, on the adaptive learning thing. The reason I wanted you to pull the EEC or reset it would be so you don't have any adaptive tables applying themselves at WOT for the dyno run. If you command a certain air/fuel rate, and the EEC sees a different rate through the 02 sensors, it will put data in the tables to correct that. I was concerned about this because you said you have a Superchip that was not correctly calibrated for your performance. That would cause the adaptive tables to hold some data that could impact the results.

Once those tables have been cleared from your all of your previous driving history, adaptive learning is not a concern for dyno results. There's no need to drive the car either before dyno tuning it. That Is why I believe that you are really seeing the true comparison with the results you didn't post online for this group to read. The posted numbers didn't make sense, and the fact that we made more torque but less HP in your first finding was contradictory to practical math.

I know dyno time is expensive, and that you wanted to get this done quickly. The fastest way to reset the EEC is to simply unplug it from the connector. This clears all adaptive tables, and then you are ready to hit the dyno. You don't need to drive it around first, because the adaptive tables will be empty, and there will be nothing to alter the true performance of your programming.

I apologize for putting so much information in my responses, I would like to see you get the best possible tune on your vehicle. And like I said in the beginning, there is no secret way to make power, it's all in the code. And based on the first comparison and the second, the only one that makes mathematical sense is the second one. But accepting that means that something was inaccurate on the dyno when the first Superchip dyno results were done. There also seems to be a strange low range hp/tq spike on the first Superchips graph you sent us that doesn't make sense either.

I'd like to help you out, and I am more than willing to reflash the chip. But based on what you have given me, I believe you are already seeing a gain. The air/fuel is also almost exactly where we want it too.

Since you didn't put the results of the true side by side comparison in this post, I feel I should do so to let everyone see. This is the side by side dyno results from Ron's test that he sent me. I just put the data in an excel graph similar to his.

compare.jpeg



Brian

P.S. Some "chip dealers" that sell custom chips really only sell stock diablo or superchip files but throw their own name on it and call it a custom chip. That is one possibility as to why he never responded back when you asked him to customize the coding on your superchip.
 






Brian - I'm not buying your story, no way no how.

If you look at the data columns V-W-X which was my latest dyno run (6/29/02) after installing the Random Technology exhaust package and running my Superchip, I had peak horsepower of 191 and 226 ft. lbs. of torque on a 97 degree day with air:fuel ranges of 14.9 to 13.7. None of my dyno runs have ever had a air:fuel ratio below 13.7.

Now I install the Apten chip (data columns Y-Z-AA) on a 76 degree day and lose 2hp and 9 ft. lbs. of torque with air:fuel ratio of 14.6 to 13.2 after following the OE guidelines for a cpu reset (run engine at idle for 1 minute after attaining normal operating temperature, then run ac for 1 minute, then drive for at least 10 miles). I have done this procedure each time I have added a component, and after installing the Apten chip. Therefore, I believe that the Apten dyno numbers are correct.

As stated above, after the first 2 dyno pulls with the Apten chip, we disconnected the battery for about 5 minutes, installed the Superchip (and restarted the cpu reset process as detailed above). However, we couldn't complete the reset process by driving the ST which is why I don't trust the back-to-back numbers. After never having a Superchip dyno run air:fuel ratio below 13.7, all of a sudden I'm pulling 13.4. Funny how all of a sudden the Superchip hp/torque/air:fuel numbers are similar to the Aptens. This is why I do not trust the last Superchip dyno run.

The dyno numbers have been updated (Dead Link Removed) for all to see. The back-to-back Apten/Superchip runs are the last 6 columns in the data table. I am not bothering to update the graphs with bad data.
 






Sport Trac SVT,

I know you probably have not seen the rule about max 6 lines in sig. I would suggest changing it before a moderator does.

They really should make the rules easier to find imo.



Paul.
 






Just a note to everyone. My dyno numbers should not affect anyone's purchase of this chip. I am running more performance mods than most. At this point, it's all about tuning which is what Apten and myself are still pursuing.

Dead Link Removed
 






Originally posted by Sport Trac SVT
Just a note to everyone. My dyno numbers should not affect anyone's purchase of this chip. I am running more performance mods than most. At this point, it's all about tuning which is what Apten and myself are still pursuing.

Dead Link Removed

Any news or updates?
 






Brian and I are still working on what changes to make to the program.
 






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