HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?

[thunderhorse]

I've got to ask a dumb question... Is the theory that the hydrogen being added to the intake will burn, or is the theory that the added oxygen will increase combustion efficiency? Just thinking out loud here... Won't adding oxygen to the intake stream mean that the engine needs to add more fuel to maintain a stoichiometric ratio? Won't adding the oxygen make it less efficient?

By the same token, how much of an effect would the free hydrogen have on the ignition? If those two suppositions are correct, is the added efficiency from the hydrogen enough to compensate for the loss of efficiency from the added oxygen?

Again, not looking to argue, just looking for some logic here....

NO argument from here either.
hummm logic ok hydrogen/oxygen( Browns Gas) burns more efficiently than does gasoline( I think the #s are something like 80% to 15% give or take a little). The theory as I read it. is that by adding the Browns Gas to gasoline raises the gasoline's burn efficiency thus more power better gas mileage .
But then again I have not seen either but still hopeful.

 

[CDW6212R]

Well the trick is to find the best A/F ratio for the given HHO ingested, which will not be a typical 14.7:1 etc.

 

[captainjimrod]

Hho

Hi Al, yes it was a regular canning Jar, and the kit he purchased from one of the affiliates of water4gas, I will be seeing him today and will ascertain which exact kit he utilized and purchased. Thanks Pensa for the advice, today he plans on utilizing a better thicker jar and the advice provided by Pensa.
thanks guys,
Jim

 

[aldive]

Use a Ball canning jar.

http://www.ball.com/page.jsp?page=38

Good luck ....

 

[bse068]

HHO Info Overload

I have watched every video posted by ZeroFossilFuel on this subject. OW!! There is alot of information and it is well documented. His postings are very addictive. If you watch one, you will watch all of them regarding this subject. Good Luck to everyone trying to build and install these systems.

 

[trucku]

I have watched every video posted by ZeroFossilFuel on this subject. OW!! There is alot of information and it is well documented. His postings are very addictive. If you watch one, you will watch all of them regarding this subject. Good Luck to everyone trying to build and install these systems.

Yes when you watch one, your going to watch others. I did like 30 videos one night, because it would not make senses if you watched only a couple.

 

[bigman4921]

Hey Guys, I am joining the quest for brown gas use on mine 01 sporttrac.
al I am not good with the car computers or anything but did you see the MAP tuners on ebay for like 50 dollars.. to solve the over heating problem can we use heat sink to cool the water. I am on generation two for my generators built, what design works the best, I heard coils,many plates, cylinder inside cylinder what have you guy seem to like?

tom

 

[brihan]

I was losing sleep again over this project (and I'm not even building mine.... yet).

I was thinking about the o2 sensor issue. There has been much talk about the sensor reading a lean condition therefor telling the injectors to stay open longer and richen things up.

All the solutions I have heard deal with faking the sensor one way or another (either with spacers on the sensor or by reprogramming) so the computer will not richen the mixture as much.

My solution (for one of you guys much smarter than I ) is to eliminate sensor/computer/injector variable.

Disconnect the o2 sensors, this should put it in an open loop which makes it go full rich (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm thinking this is good because we have taken that variable out of our equation.

Now that we are running full rich, (again, this is when you smart guys come in) lets now control the amount of fuel going through the wide open injectors by limiting how much fuel can flow through the fuel line.

If we put in a "valve" that we can use to control the fuel flow, we can now have control of the A/F mixture instead of the computer.

I was thinking about doing this with the fuel pump but I think we still want the high pressure at all times so limiting the flow by fuel pump pressure I do not think is a good idea.

So, a manual valve on the fuel line would be great for testing at idle as you can dial down your A/F mixture, adjusting A/F on your own without the computer interfering. Now we are getting back to the old carburetor days when you would lean out your idle mixture with the idle screw until the engine ran rough (to lean) then back it off a little to have the "somewhat perfect" A/F mixture.

Once we achieve this at idle we will have an idea of what the perfect A/F/HHO mixture is.

Please let me know if I'm a whacko or way off base with my thinking.

Now step 2 would be to get/make a fuel flow control valve that would adjust the flow due to RPM and throttle position.

That is my thought for the day (actually, it kept me up all night). I hope it is of some use or will inspire someone to improve upon it.

Now I have to get back to my real job

Keep up the great work. I hope to be building one of my own in a month or two (again, that damn job gets in the way).

Take care,

Brian

 

[Trebor]

as i posted before, i have been reading and it seems what people are doing is adding a "EFIE unit" to keep the car from running to lean/rich. i googled it and came up with a number of interesting reads. heres one of the links http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/EfieDescribed.html

 

[manaen]

Can't you guys just use the temp sensor to fake the computer into thinking it is warmer than it actually is and it will run leaner than the stock map?

Of course now that I think about it that would probably require a decrease in resistance which may be tough to obtain.


edit: wait that shouldn't be that hard, all you need is a high ohm resister between the terminals of the temp sensor, which will lower it's resistance by providing two paths therefore combining the resistanc of both. I need to look up those old resistance calculations.

 

[bse068]

EFIE management unit...

just a link I found for an EFIE management unit... I want one!!! They are expensive. Sorry, I don't know how to add a clickable link yet. I am still learning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA72J_lN8MY

http://www.hhoforever.com

 

[brihan]

Trebor, thank you.

That was a night of sleeplessness I'll never get back

That is the device I'm looking for (aren't we all?).

Brian

 

[aldive]

Al by any chance does the one you have make the water turn a greenish brown color?

I took a look at my generator this afternoon.

I had previously reported clear water but today the water was a slight greenish brown color with some precipitate on the bottom.

 

[joefnh]

Al depending on the quality of the stainless, the water discoloration will eventually fade. The surface of the metal will give off some chromium and nickel. This should dissipate over the first 20 hours of use (assuming a high quality stainless was used i.e. 316L)

--Joe

 

[Runesai]

Excellent work guys. I've been thinking of a project like this for a while now. Only one thing has stopped me. Winter. Up here we get rather cold, would the catalyst work as an antifreeze, or would I have a big jar of ice and unable to use it in the cold? Any ideas around this? Mind you if it works, use it in the summer and had to be empty for the winter it'd make summer vacationing a bit easier on the wallet.

 

[greyphox]

Can't you guys just use the temp sensor to fake the computer into thinking it is warmer than it actually is and it will run leaner than the stock map?

Of course now that I think about it that would probably require a decrease in resistance which may be tough to obtain.


edit: wait that shouldn't be that hard, all you need is a high ohm resister between the terminals of the temp sensor, which will lower it's resistance by providing two paths therefore combining the resistanc of both. I need to look up those old resistance calculations.

Technically yes...all you would have to do is wire a resistor in parallel to the temperature sensor.

the formula is R1*R2/(R1+R2) for resistors in parallel

the problem with this is the you have a fixed resistance in parallel with a variable one. Say for example, at 70* the you make the computer think 100*. But when its 60* the computer might think its 80*, thus the difference between the two will most likely change, therefore the amount of "correction" changes. Personally I would go with the adjustment of O2 sensors, but that is just me.

 

[BrooklynBay]

This chart is in # 25 in my list of useful threads:

 

[greyphox]

Think of it like this...the HHO generator puts out an almost constant amount of gas, right? Therefore you want an almost constant adjustment factor to be introduced to the system (bet it moving O2 sensors, adding voltage to them, temp sensor adjust, etc). The easiest way IMO is to have a simple voltage adder circuit tap into the Bank 1 sensors. This way you still have the actual signal coming from the O2 sensor, but with a DC offset. Since the computer monitors RMS voltage, not peak, this is a good solution. Also, the computer makes sure the O2 sensors are working by checking to see if they are producing roughly a sin wave. Therefore putting straight DC of like .6 volts or so would just throw a code and put you in open loop, defeating the purpose.
I think the physical relocation of O2 sensors is also a viable solution....but seems like a bit more work to me, plus the fact that it is not readily adjustable.

 

[Pensa]

Excellent work guys. I've been thinking of a project like this for a while now. Only one thing has stopped me. Winter. Up here we get rather cold, would the catalyst work as an antifreeze, or would I have a big jar of ice and unable to use it in the cold? Any ideas around this? Mind you if it works, use it in the summer and had to be empty for the winter it'd make summer vacationing a bit easier on the wallet.

I wondered the same thing and from what I have read a 20% alcohol solution will keep it from freezing. 20% alcohol 80% distilled water.

 

[ilh]

alright boys, forgive me, i have to chime in.

with grade 12 chemistry fresh in my head, and electrochemistry even fresher, i have to get a little bit cranky and theoretical on your butts.

the water:

distilled water doesnt conduct electricity as well. dont use it. that's why we use an electrolyte. it puts ions into the water which transfers electrons.
the sodium bicarbonate? NaHCO3 is it's chemical structure. when it breaks down? Na+ ions and HCO3- ions. HCO3- will bond with your precious H+ gas to create H2CO3, which quickly breaks down into H2O (water) and CO2 (carbon dioxide.) you dont burn these so well!

Aldive, you said "KOH is indeed the way to go for maximum efficiency, however, its a little too potentially caustic for my liking."
so is NaHCO3. concentration is what changes it's pH. if you feel like it, PM me and i can give you numbers for weight to give you a molarity.

Pensa, the alcohol?
DONT DO IT! are you thinking of ethanol (beverage alcohol) or methanol (wood alcohol, or racing fuel)? both of these can undergo electrolysis as well and some messy compounds. the water will go first, but eventually you could end up with acetic acid or formaldehyde in your jar.
use a pinch of table salt. NaCl. its a bit safer. it could produce Cl2 gas through the overpotential effect, but in the amount you add it, you'll be fine.

the 316L stainless theory? it's flawed. 316L has lots of chromium, nickel, some molybdenum, etc inside, which is consumed first. but eventually the iron will be consumed and you'll end up with yuck in the jar. how is copper refined? you electrorefine it. take a slab of "pig" (impure) copper, put it in a solution of CuSO4, get a wire of pure copper. run a current through it, and the pig copper collects on the pure wire. all the silver, gold, and platinum ends up at the bottom. same theory applies.

forgive me if i sound cranky, but this stuff is flawed.
Aldive, i'd like to see your conclusions. how much H2 is really being output?
anybody wants to shoot the chemistry-poop with me, email me - ian@hapke.ca.