M90 rebuild (rudy)

[jd4242]

Having some good discussions over on rps about E85 or E50 so thought id share some of my thoughts..

Ive been reading up and from what i can see there isnt much gains to running over a E50 mix..octane is not liniar so it does not increase past the point of E50..the only benifit i see once past the E50 mark is the amount of fuel that is injected. .obviously the more fuel,especially ethanol will cool the chamber but is it needed for the down side effects. .if i can reach full timing off E50,which many can,then no its not needed..im running two intercoolers so my IAT shouldnt be crazy and only running 11:1@16Lbs..not crazy in the performance world..

E50 has many benefits over E85 i see..still get the ""105"" octane,cooling effects of ethanol, less chances of gumming/corrosiveness,less strain on pump and biggest better mpg..

Ill have to test the E85 every time if i use pump E85,but im looking more towards getting a barrel of E98 and mixing my own gas..that way i know its a 50/50 mix everytime

My thing is,i try and run around 10-12gallons in my rear tank for traction for my old setup..any more and it didnt seem to help,just added weight. ..i got about 12-14mpg on my last setup doing average driving,way less when playing around...

If i were to run E85 and gas mileage is as bad as some say,33-40% worse..id be getting around 8mpg with average driving and even worse when racing....i would barley get 90miles per tank and EVEN less when racing..that wouldnt even get me to the race spot,hell id have to fill up twice just to go race..this is a true street truck and it will never see a trailer unless broke down..lol

Im not saving money by using all E85 as gas is cheaper than it right now...biggest question is can i peak my timing out using just E50..

 

[4pointslow]

Timing

Get it up and running and tuned with 93 octane and see how far you can get the timing up to. Then you can experiment from there to see what the E fuels would do for you.
Any idea what the best timing would be on your truck that would give max torque?

11.1 seems very high to me for compression on a boosted "street" vehicle.

 

[jd4242]

Get it up and running and tuned with 93 octane and see how far you can get the timing up to. Then you can experiment from there to see what the E fuels would do for you.
Any idea what the best timing would be on your truck that would give max torque?

11.1 seems very high to me for compression on a boosted "street" vehicle.

I know on 93 i couldnt run alot on my last motor and that was 10.67:1@10lbs..i dont recall what or how much though..i know i was nowhere near the max for sure..being OHV i dont really have other peoples input on how much they run or anything either. [MENTION=102869]Dono[/MENTION] you recall what stock timing was and what you was running boosted??i know you pushed it a couple times

11:1 is high for a boosted car on street gas for sure but not really that high for race gas or alcohol based fuels. .hell i hear about guys running 12-13:1+ @25-30Lbs of boost on E85 with full timing..thats how all these guys are making 1,000hp+ on these small block street cars with basically no money into them..

Hell you can take a junkyard 6.0ls,swap on ls1 heads,cam,high compression, twin turbo and E85 and make 700hp+ for less than $2-3k...street game has changed alot with E85 or E98 and tuning capabilities nowadays..both E85 or E98 can be had at least than $2 a gallon

 

[jd4242]

[MENTION=81804]4pointslow[/MENTION] if i was you and being i see pumps around you,id look into a E50 mix..you have those 60lbs.think you could ditch your meth injection and add a butt load of timing..even with your meth i bet temps are still pretty high,i remember you saying you get detonation with smaller pulley..bet you would pull another 100hp or serious time off your 1/4..be easy for you as you have everything you need already and you do your own tuning and id LOVE to see the results ..or even just a E50 tune for race day as tune and adding Ethanol would be only changes..lol

Only thing i cant remember is if you daily drive yours enough where mixing would become a pia...both my E85 and 93gas pumps are next to each other so all ill have to do is,test the E85ish,fill 10 gallons..then enter ethanol content into my calculator and add whatever amount of gas it says to..
https://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html

 

[Dono]

JD, I'll look for some old logs tonight. I do know that there's very little timing. I'm sure the big issue with the setup I have was heat. The iat's made it necessary to pull all kinds of timing. I don't know what the actual compression is of my v6, but Its no where near 11:1.

 

[jd4242]

JD, I'll look for some old logs tonight. I do know that there's very little timing. I'm sure the big issue with the setup I have was heat. The iat's made it necessary to pull all kinds of timing. I don't know what the actual compression is of my v6, but Its no where near 11:1.

Thanks

Stock 4.0 is 8.9:1 and if i recall i seem to think i said i was running around or less timing than you..my IAT were betther than yours but my compression of 10.67:1 was making me pull alot of timing out

 

[4pointslow]

[MENTION=81804]4pointslow[/MENTION] if i was you and being i see pumps around you,id look into a E50 mix..
https://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html

I am lazy, I don't want to mix fuels. lol.
I have a metal fuel tank, and some lines too. They would corrode. I guess I could change them but I like being able to pull up to the fuel tanks and just fill up.

Yea, I am lazy.

 

[jd4242]

I am lazy, I don't want to mix fuels. lol.
I have a metal fuel tank, and some lines too. They would corrode. I guess I could change them but I like being able to pull up to the fuel tanks and just fill up.

Yea, I am lazy.

The corroded issuse is ALOT less than everyone worries about..they ship and store E98 in metal barrels. .plus running E50 has even less of worry,that much gas and things never gum up..people run E50 on stock systems

Bet you can pull same power from E50 with current setup as you could with new heads and all that..lol

 

[Dono]

On my 4.0ohv m90 logs I'm seeing timing as low as 7.5 degree's.

I'm sure intercooling would have allowed way more timing.

 

[jd4242]

On my 4.0ohv m90 logs I'm seeing timing as low as 7.5 degree's.

I'm sure intercooling would have allowed way more timing.

I seem to remember like a 12-13 but cant remember if that was stock or mine or if im just crazy..lol hmm now i think about it,isnt the crank marked .think i used it to set the camshaft sensor on that 96 i sold..let me goggle

Swear my buddy said hes running like 19 on his procharged mustang and hes E85..

 

[jd4242]

I found what i was thinking, the mark is 26*.also found stock is 10*...but is that at idle i assume,wot would be different correct? ?seems very low..even old 302s i thought was in the 14range.

I dont know crap about tuning..check with my buddy and he is running 19*@what he says,low boost..20Lbs

 

[Dono]

JD, I'm pretty sure that the 7.5 degree's is 7.5 degree's + 10 base degree's.

Total timing is 17.5. I'm sure that's what 4pointslow told me. He will confirm when he gets a chance to catch up on stuff and confirm one way or another.

 

[4pointslow]

Timing

On the old vehicles when you disconnected a spout connector to set base timing to 10°BTDC.... That would be what the timing was before the computer added to, or subtracted from it. Older vehicles than that had mechanical and vacuum advance which would add or subtract timing to or from base.
Some people disabled advance mechanisms and just advanced the timing to where it was going to need to be at WOT, not the best way to do things but it worked on race cars.

On the newer vehicles the crank sensor bolts in one place and that is permanently set to 10° BTDC. If the WOT spot in the tune says 14, it is adding 14° to the 10° so you would have a total of 24°BTDC.
Timing is really Spark or Timing "Advance".

If you saw -4 the PCM would be pulling timing or retarding timing.

Timing can be retarded for knock control, and it can be retarded or advanced for Idle control. I once retarded my timing to control an rpm that was too high.
I think it is still in my tune like that.

 

[4pointslow]

typing

JD, I'm pretty sure that the 7.5 degree's is 7.5 degree's + 10 base degree's.

Total timing is 17.5. I'm sure that's what 4pointslow told me. He will confirm when he gets a chance to catch up on stuff and confirm one way or another.

I was typing as you posted, lol

 

[jd4242]

[MENTION=81804]4pointslow[/MENTION] aww i kind of get it now..your example of 14 is that close to average for our trucks before anything crazy happened to them??how much timing you runing and what point was you getting detonation ??if you recall,just to give me a ballpark

I know there is a limit but what neighborhood is that in typically? ?the 20s,30,40s etc???

This is why i let the pros handle it but wouldnt mind having a ballpark of what tuner people are talking about..lol

 

[4pointslow]

Timing

I don't know about the OHV engine, that's why I asked.
In the tune of the SOHC 4.0, ther is a MBT table that is supposed to have the max torque produced with what ever timing is in the boxes. That is for naturally aspirated engines though. Some tuners shoot for those numbers, they even copy and paste those numbers into the borderline knock tables but again that is only for N/A engines.

I have had anywhere from 6(16 total) to about 20(30total) on my truck with boost. I am now 14(24total) with 20lbs of boost and water methanol spray and intercooler. I just looked at the MBT table and it has 25 in there for the WOT spots, so in theory anything more than that would not increase the torque. I don't know how accurate the table is though, since we are boosted and have altered many things. Supposedly the manufactures tested on the dyno to come up with these numbers.

Also I thought [MENTION=111113]2000StreetRod[/MENTION] saw that all the MBT tables he came across were the same which led us to believe that they might be BS anyway. Maybe he can chime in.

 

[jd4242]

Aww makes even more sense now.i know the sohc motor could be run off the OHV ecu so figured they maybe in the ballpark of each other,gives me an idea atleast.

when my guy does my base tune for the E50 ill ask what i was at and what he is setting it for now..

 

[2000StreetRod]

4.0L OHV Borderline Knock

I've been having internet connection problems for more than a week. Upgraded my modem to Uverse's latest and purchased a new laptop. I'm in the middle of transferring files and programs from the old to the new computer.

Here's a value file Borderline Knock Table for an Explorer with NA 4.0L OHV running 93 octane race fuel.

 

[jd4242]

I've been having internet connection problems for more than a week. Upgraded my modem to Uverse's latest and purchased a new laptop. I'm in the middle of transferring files and programs from the old to the new computer.

Here's a value file Borderline Knock Table for an Explorer with NA 4.0L OHV running 93 octane race fuel.
View attachment 88528

Awesome! !!

Now is this total timing or this still need to be added to the base line of 10*

I assume the load is what it sounds like..like wot pull would be pulling a .899 load??

 

[4pointslow]

Timing

That would be on top of the 10 base.
So here is an attempt at explaining the different spark tables,
The MBT table is just a place keeper or information in the tune, has no effect on where timing actually is.

There is another table called Max Allowed, it is as it seems. It is the max that the pcm would allow under any condition, it wont let it go over this.

The Borderline knock table is where the vehicle will usually run, it is set up for what ever gas the manufacturer recommends. You may see actual timing below that due to knock sensor or IAT temps etc.

So the table above is for 93 octane fuel on a N/A engine, it would not be the stock table. If you can reach this point with boost and 11:1 compression, that would be amazing. Intercooler,Watermeth, and high octane fuels are what is needed.