M90 rebuild (rudy)

[jd4242]

Awww understanding little by little..

What would the typical "border line"" table be set to,87?

Am i understanding the load reference correct? ?higher number means more load??

My tuner did show me a table for the IAT take out..i wanna say i rember him saying something as long of the lines of 3* of timing for each step on the table..also i do wanna say he said the timing was like 12-13*(22-23*) which is looking like it could have been possible,definitely low tho

 

[jd4242]

I've been having internet connection problems for more than a week. Upgraded my modem to Uverse's latest and purchased a new laptop. I'm in the middle of transferring files and programs from the old to the new computer.

Here's a value file Borderline Knock Table for an Explorer with NA 4.0L OHV running 93 octane race fuel.
View attachment 88528

Why are some in blue or black or red?

 

[2000StreetRod]

red, black & blue

Why are some in blue or black or red?

The numbers are compared to my stock tune.
Red > number greater than stock
Black > number same as stock
Blue > number less than stock

 

[2000StreetRod]

Spark timing?

That would be on top of the 10 base. . .

I'm confused about the spark timing reference. I thought the spark timing was relative to TDC. Below is a comparison of my stock SOHC V6 timing to the 93 octane OHV timing.

At 6,000 rpm and .9 load the 93 octane fuel timing is 22 deg or 3 deg more advanced that my stock 87 octane fuel timing. That seems about right to me for a safe tune.

Below is the timing I'm using with 6 psi boost until I can reduce my IAT.

 

[jd4242]

Yea im confused about the table numbers..so for the ohvbis 22*@6000 the total amount of timing? ?or is it really 33*?? 33 sounds high from what im understanding now

 

[4pointslow]

Base timing

The crank sensor is set at 10 degrees before TDC.
On older vehicles with distributors you set base to 10, with crank sensors the 10 degree's is built in.

On older Chevy motors they used to run 36 degree's timing at full advance. If the stock timing was 6 when setting the distributor then the mechanical and vacuum advance would add a total of 30. hate to use Chevy for an example. lol.

 

[4pointslow]

Timing

Yea im confused about the table numbers..so for the ohvbis 22*@6000 the total amount of timing? ?or is it really 33*?? 33 sounds high from what im understanding now

It would be 32 total, you would never see 32 in a datalog, it would show 22.

 

[jd4242]

It would be 32 total, you would never see 32 in a datalog, it would show 22.

Gotcha. .so basically people just refer to the tables or datalogs when they say ""im running 19*""

Im definitely curious to what i was running..also curious to see the difference in a E50 tune and my 93 tune..if there was one screen i could take a picture of wile im getting tuned,which screen would you all like to see that could tell us the most info???


[MENTION=111113]2000StreetRod[/MENTION]
Now the borderline table,is that based off max tq??or is there a different table they base max timing with max tq??

 

[4pointslow]

datalog

A screenshot of the datalog would be where the timing would show up, if it is selected in the datalog. Don't know what program he is using to datalog though, I am only used to SCT's LiveLink for OBD2

The borderline table is the safe table for what gas the manufacturer set it up for.
That's where the canned tunes adjust timing, stock would be 87 octane and the values would be lower, then there is 91 which has slightly higher numbers, and 93 has the highest. You would not want to run 87 fuel on the 93 timing, detonation/knock would happen.

MBT table is the where max power is made, MBT stands for Maximum Brake(away) Torque.

 

[jd4242]

Its obd1 so no dayalogs..its gonna all be done on the dyno.i was gonna just ask him if i could physically take a picture of his computer screen..

Yea im understanding the borderline table now and understand thats a 93 and higher than probably a stock 87 table..

The MBT table is what im interested in seeing.if the motor was stock and was just going to a ethanol blend,that would be the table i think he would be atarting timing around,""think"" if im understanding. .
[MENTION=111113]2000StreetRod[/MENTION] you have a MBT shot for the OHV by chance??

 

[2000StreetRod]

MBT spark

Here's a copy of my 2000 stock SOHC V6 MBT spark table.

I checked the SCT value files and the same table is used for all of the 4.0L V6 vehicles: Explorer, Ranger, Mustang; 87, 91, 93, and race fuels; FI or NA.
Here's a copy of my current FI table.

As I recall the table is only used by the PCM for torque calculations for computing automatic transmission shift points. I have confirmed that the table has no effect on spark in my PCM strategy.

 

[Dono]

I'd question the mbt tables a bit.
Interestingly enough, my 5.0 starter tune that was sent to me from Lasota had some odd things in it.
1. the borderline spark table had quite a few areas that were higher than the mbt and max spark tables. Very strange, even after loading factory values to look at the differences from the modified tune to what I think are stock values.

I know Lasota imported values from different tunes in to my base tune, including the borderline spark table from a dynotuned 347 with almost exactly the same specs as mine. I upped my max spark table so that the values from the borderline table at low load and low rpm's and have seen only positive results (better gas mileage, more low end torque at cruising speeds, etc.). No hint of detonation.

I'm not trying to derail this conversation, but I think the factory has all the spark tables (Including mbt) extremely conservative. This might just be a symptom that I am seeing that's particular to my situation, but worth noting.

Also, on a dyno, I doubt they tune low load and low rpm spark at all. If your using high octane, it makes sense to me that you would want to attempt to take advantage of it thru the full load/rpm range. I think tuning all ranges would increase dyno time exponentially.

 

[jd4242]

Hmm all very interesting. .not taking any of the numbers seriously but definitely gives me an idea and in site of whats going on and how it works..

Thanks and im sure once i get back on dyno for my final tune ill have a bunch of more questions or and better idea of my tune

 

[2000StreetRod]

spark source

For tuning I record spark source so I know which table the PCM is using. The PCM interpolates the spark value using the borderline knock table and the max allowed spark table and then uses the least advanced value. Then it adjusts that value for ECT and IAT and in my case knock sensor retard. Some tuners set all of the max allowed spark table entries to something ridiculously high so the PCM always uses the borderline knock table. I use the max allowed spark table as a safety net with reasonable entries so if I make a careless mistake on the borderline knock table there's less chance of damaging the engine.

I have created bogus MBT tables with values less than the BKT and MAS tables and the PCM has never used the MBT values for spark.

 

[2000StreetRod]

WOT upshift points

I set my WOT upshift points for max acceleration based on my rwtq plot and the overall gearing. When the rwtq @ rpm x gear ratio decreases to the rwtq @ rpm x next gear ratio the PCM upshifts. I datalog the acceleration pid to confirm the shift points are correct to maximize acceleration.

 

[jd4242]

For tuning I record spark source so I know which table the PCM is using. The PCM interpolates the spark value using the borderline knock table and the max allowed spark table and then uses the least advanced value. Then it adjusts that value for ECT and IAT and in my case knock sensor retard. Some tuners set all of the max allowed spark table entries to something ridiculously high so the PCM always uses the borderline knock table. I use the max allowed spark table as a safety net with reasonable entries so if I make a careless mistake on the borderline knock table there's less chance of damaging the engine.
View attachment 88538

I have created bogus MBT tables with values less than the BKT and MAS tables and the PCM has never used the MBT values for spark.

Aww very interesting and well explained. .think i have a pretty good idea of how things work.now i can look over his shoulder and have some idea of what he is doing or not doing..

definitely interested to see what the max timing will be at max tq from the dyno on E50 and then compare them to the stock max aloud table..

 

[jd4242]

Well talked to the guy with my rods,he said ""man whoever ordered those rods should've ordered the right ones"" and "hopefully they will be done on Thursday, call me then and ill know something "" thanks ASS..i really wanna go and pick the parts up and take them to my local shop but im sure he would try and charge me for some BS..so Thursday we shall see...

Meanwhile i got all my parts cleaned up and painted..used old ford blue,2 coats of high temp clear and 2 coats of dupli-color " " clear effects " ". .love this combo,it looks like a wet blue rainbow in the sun..hahah

 

[willzilla]

Sexy color combo.

 

[jd4242]

Yep im getting raped!!! Called and talked to him today..said hes finishing up milling the rods and should have the balancing done by end of day..also said hes already has a FULL day involved in them..i asked how that was possible and he said he had to make a fixture and that 90 thousandths needed to come off each side of the rods..

Apparently it takes a full day to make a fixture? ? Now i run a machine shop (not aloud to use equipment for personal use) but i know better than that BS..he is probably using a standard clamp or even a magnetic base to hold the rods down,also i know how many passes and time it takes to mill a 3" circumference lip..i would guess no more than 10mins per side/20 total,2 hours for all 6..the local shop also guesstimated the same time..they quoted me $250 for balance and $250 for machining. ..even at $500 i feel RAPED! ! I have a feeling im going to be upwards of a $1,000 with this ashole..from the sound of it,he has 8 hours yesterday and probably atleast 4 today..his rate of $80x12=960 just for rods and pretty sure he said $350 for balance. .thats upwards of $1,300!!! IM GONNA BE PISSED:thumbdwn:

 

[Dono]

Yea, at this point you are done.
Maybe he just doesn't have the equipment to do the job, and thats really the issue?
Gotta hate it.