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Completed Project Moving-On, No More Kenne Bell Supercharged 5.0
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Blown
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I should have everything tomorrow to start building it up!
I get to center, drill and tap another crank balancer in order to mount the Supercharger pulley. Evidently the supercharger pulley is fine. The balancer fell and landed on the spindle and it bent. At the pulley, they claim it was out 40 thousandths. I wanted the frickin' charger pulley balanced with the rotating assembly, so much for that.
I get to center, drill and tap another crank balancer in order to mount the Supercharger pulley. Evidently the supercharger pulley is fine. The balancer fell and landed on the spindle and it bent. At the pulley, they claim it was out 40 thousandths. I wanted the frickin' charger pulley balanced with the rotating assembly, so much for that.
Blown
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Parts **** today but first, The machine shop internally balanced the rotating assembly. That is why they got a new balancer/pulley, old one was drilled-out previously. They took a couple big plugs out of the crank toward the front instead of out of the balancer/pulley. It was out .040 but I measure the new one and it is out.030. They lied to me rather than explaining the internal balancing procedure. I believe it is better to balance closer to the center of mass?
Flex plate and front of crank:
This is a good "Seasoned block", They would bury them so they could absorb more carbon from the earth (vs the regular cooling of in ambient air) as they cooled down. The more carbon steel contains the harder it becomes.:
Forged Pistons, look at the thickness of it above the top ring! The rods were shot peened to relieve stress and ARP bolts added:
Flex plate and front of crank:
This is a good "Seasoned block", They would bury them so they could absorb more carbon from the earth (vs the regular cooling of in ambient air) as they cooled down. The more carbon steel contains the harder it becomes.:
Forged Pistons, look at the thickness of it above the top ring! The rods were shot peened to relieve stress and ARP bolts added:
Blown
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I am having problems with the crank and bearings. It is way to tight. It is as if the machine shop polished but did not turn down the crank. I got .010 racing bearings fro the machine shop. I was very sanitary, clean installing the bearings and used 10w30 for trial fitting (no oil under the bearings). I set the crank in and it would turn. I put the caps on and threaded the bolts into them by hand and left some room for the caps to move a bit. I then tapped the caps down, tightening the bolts by hand (no binding in the bolts), and then lightly torqued them. The crank will not turn and there is no end play!!!!! The thrust bearing is tight front to back as well.
Do you think I ruined the bearings or messed-up the crank by torquing it down?
I got a hold of a micrometer and bore gauge, coming tomorrow, I can get precise measurements and take it back to the machine shop.
Do you think I ruined the bearings or messed-up the crank by torquing it down?
I got a hold of a micrometer and bore gauge, coming tomorrow, I can get precise measurements and take it back to the machine shop.
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The shop internally balanced the crank etc, why, what shop would do that without being asked to? That will make it difficult to service the balancer or flexplate in the future. Oh well, just hope nothing ever gets hurt and needs any work. You want a bolt on balancer and flexplate.
The bearings and crank are most likely not matched, but there should be no harm to either. Do check the crank with a micrometer, the measurements should tell you what bearings are needed. Hopefully they machined the crank properly for a certain bearing, and what you bought is just too tight for it. That's an easier fix than reworking the crank.
The bearings and crank are most likely not matched, but there should be no harm to either. Do check the crank with a micrometer, the measurements should tell you what bearings are needed. Hopefully they machined the crank properly for a certain bearing, and what you bought is just too tight for it. That's an easier fix than reworking the crank.
DP96XLT
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I just have to ask, have you built engines before? Done any *real* blueprinting?
I would never do final assembly without using plastigage to verify the bearing clearances. There is a methodical set of steps to follow to verify all the machine work before you use assembly lube and put it all together.
Also race bearings just mean they are harder than "normal" bearings (I believe there is less babbit material) and thus less debris can get stuck and in the end when you are spinning a ton of horsepower and RPMs you get stuff going into the filter vs getting stuck in a bearing and wiping out a journal. Bearings are cheap, machine work and expensive machined parts are not. Race motors also are expected to be rebuilt regularly. Daily drivers are not.
Pistons setup for boost have thick crowns and lower top ring lands... Just gotta make sure with the stroke you have (if you have increased it) that you done pull the oil control rings out of the bore at the bottom. I have not read through the whole thread, so I don't know if it is stock displacement or not.
I would never do final assembly without using plastigage to verify the bearing clearances. There is a methodical set of steps to follow to verify all the machine work before you use assembly lube and put it all together.
Also race bearings just mean they are harder than "normal" bearings (I believe there is less babbit material) and thus less debris can get stuck and in the end when you are spinning a ton of horsepower and RPMs you get stuff going into the filter vs getting stuck in a bearing and wiping out a journal. Bearings are cheap, machine work and expensive machined parts are not. Race motors also are expected to be rebuilt regularly. Daily drivers are not.
Pistons setup for boost have thick crowns and lower top ring lands... Just gotta make sure with the stroke you have (if you have increased it) that you done pull the oil control rings out of the bore at the bottom. I have not read through the whole thread, so I don't know if it is stock displacement or not.
DP96XLT
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I COMPLETELY agree!
Unless you are going for some esoteric aftermarket parts (where you can specify a zero-balanced balancer or flywheel), ie, if the only parts available are "factory spec" parts that are whatever the factory puts on the vehicle, you NEVER touch those parts. You supply those parts to the machine shop and let them use those to balance the assembly, WITHOUT them touching those parts. As stated, if anything goes wrong you are now paying someone to rework a stock-spec part... That is just asking for trouble.
DP96XLT
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Oh, forgot to mention, not all machine shops are created equal... Some are jerks about anything but what they normally deal with, and some just want to treat everything as if it is going to spin 8000RPMs and try to produce 1000hp... Both cases result in less than ideal builds for stuff that is far lower in output.
Not saying you can do a quality build in both cases, just that YOUR build needs to be what you want, not what someone else "assumes" is what you want. Tough situation if it is your first build and that is what ends up leaving people with a bad taste in their mouth.
One key sign is if a shop owner wants to dictate and makes it seem like your buildup is either majorly unimportant, or if they try to act like ti is a top-fuel build that needs soo much extra expense...
Also, that BS about carbon blocks is just that, BS... sand-cast blocks are sand-cast... There is no curing process to imbue extra carbon except for a hardening process and that won't do anything for a block but surface harden it... which will do nothing since it is all about core strength in the block itself.
Seasoned blocks just mean they have plenty of heat cycles and all "weaknesses" are known via magna-fluxing... New blocks can distort slightly depending on the block and the application... for a high-HP build you want a seasoned block with a thicker amount of material near the journals (ie, less water-jacket space), thus why they use block-filler on high-hp drag motors to reduce water jacket space and give more strength... for a street vehicle you DO NOT want that. Again, that is all dependent on the block and build and configuration.
I will add that I have done 9/10s buildups on engines... What that means is that everything is just about 100% "perfect" in all regards, as in all bores are at the perfect angle, all bores are matched to the best piston for that bore, all rings are file-fit for that piston/bore, all bearings are matched for the proper stagger you are looking for back to front (or front to back depending on where the oil pump is located), everything is balanced "dead nuts" as in within .001 gram (or even .0001 gram depending on certain things), all fasteners are weighed and balanced, all oil passages being chamfered and smoothed, low-drag timing sets, etc... I am talking everything "perfect"... On those motors you can make a 425hp engine end up producing close to 485-500hp with nothing else. And when you add power adders, instead of 8lbs of boost making an additional 225-250hp it produces 275-300 extra hp... Again, it is all about losses and less losses equal bigger gains all around.
Doing those buildups take an standard engine build time of 25-35 hours up to 80-90 hours or more. And there is a lot more time involved in the machine work as well. Most people that do those builds also do their own machining or have a machinist they REALLY trust work with them.
Not saying you can do a quality build in both cases, just that YOUR build needs to be what you want, not what someone else "assumes" is what you want. Tough situation if it is your first build and that is what ends up leaving people with a bad taste in their mouth.
One key sign is if a shop owner wants to dictate and makes it seem like your buildup is either majorly unimportant, or if they try to act like ti is a top-fuel build that needs soo much extra expense...
Also, that BS about carbon blocks is just that, BS... sand-cast blocks are sand-cast... There is no curing process to imbue extra carbon except for a hardening process and that won't do anything for a block but surface harden it... which will do nothing since it is all about core strength in the block itself.
Seasoned blocks just mean they have plenty of heat cycles and all "weaknesses" are known via magna-fluxing... New blocks can distort slightly depending on the block and the application... for a high-HP build you want a seasoned block with a thicker amount of material near the journals (ie, less water-jacket space), thus why they use block-filler on high-hp drag motors to reduce water jacket space and give more strength... for a street vehicle you DO NOT want that. Again, that is all dependent on the block and build and configuration.
I will add that I have done 9/10s buildups on engines... What that means is that everything is just about 100% "perfect" in all regards, as in all bores are at the perfect angle, all bores are matched to the best piston for that bore, all rings are file-fit for that piston/bore, all bearings are matched for the proper stagger you are looking for back to front (or front to back depending on where the oil pump is located), everything is balanced "dead nuts" as in within .001 gram (or even .0001 gram depending on certain things), all fasteners are weighed and balanced, all oil passages being chamfered and smoothed, low-drag timing sets, etc... I am talking everything "perfect"... On those motors you can make a 425hp engine end up producing close to 485-500hp with nothing else. And when you add power adders, instead of 8lbs of boost making an additional 225-250hp it produces 275-300 extra hp... Again, it is all about losses and less losses equal bigger gains all around.
Doing those buildups take an standard engine build time of 25-35 hours up to 80-90 hours or more. And there is a lot more time involved in the machine work as well. Most people that do those builds also do their own machining or have a machinist they REALLY trust work with them.
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My first machinist was the ideal kind of shop, they were perfectionists and no more expensive than any place else. So balancing meant perfect, not the now common term "within one gram" garbage. That was back in 1980 though, that shop is gone and I haven't needed any work since about 1998. So I'll be hunting a reasonable and great shop myself, as said you want one that cares about your stuff, and understands what it needs, and does just that.
Blown
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This is my first build. I have done 5 before taking them forward from a short block. This will not be a spinner, running the stock cam and likely 6 or 7lbs of boost. It is now 30 over, so what a 306? I took some good advice here and it is built for more boost in the future if I upgrade the running gear for it. I kinda want 4 Low but also like AWD and will run it like it is till I make a decision.
I assumed the machine shop had given me the correct bearings. I was not going to plastigage it. Once I found it to be tight, I bought a micrometer and bore gauge to measure it properly. The crank was 6 thousandths tight! They polished it and had not turned it. The guy who did the work is no longer there for a reason. He had other issues, but he sent me home with a crank that wouldn't fit with the bearings..................This shop has multiple peoples choice awards right up to 2019 and the owner was not happy but cool with me. Imagine as a professional sending something like this out? It's very basic and very important to have the right crank with the correct bearings! I got a refund on the machining.
The builders only suggestion was to add the ARP bolts to the rods and shot peen them, good stuff for this build. He took into account what I wanted very well and made a good suggestion. I wanted the stronger forged pistons as I popped the top ring land on an early blown build with a poor tune. I want this one to hold-up in the case of bad gas and usually carry some octane boost ( or Beeno if it 's me, Ha! ). I know how quick that happened and I want the reassurance it wont again.
I believe there is an advantage to internal balancing but I got to look it up. I have never had to replace a flexplate nor solid front balancer like these are. I've had the rubber go enough it spun a harmonic balancer on a ford. I don't see a problem, but I have an extra balancer they could have used had they talked to me.
I took the crank in, they measured it and sent me back home yesterday with standard sized bearings for the crank and rods. I am going to measure again to be sure, but installed it and it rotates freely. I will pull it this evening/afternoon and go over the measurements for bearings, end-play, and thrust bearing. Yah some would say to get all the measurements first, but I do trust the machine shop and measurements we had taken. I got new tools and want to go over all of it as I build it : ) Measurement with accurate tools is better than utilizing plastigages. Ha, had I layed a plastigage on it it would have spread around the journal.
I am happy to get to build on it this evening and weekend! Thanks for the replies, it helps!
I am using assembly oil that the machine shop uses. I need to check into engine oil for break-in? Anything special needed or standard 10W30?
I assumed the machine shop had given me the correct bearings. I was not going to plastigage it. Once I found it to be tight, I bought a micrometer and bore gauge to measure it properly. The crank was 6 thousandths tight! They polished it and had not turned it. The guy who did the work is no longer there for a reason. He had other issues, but he sent me home with a crank that wouldn't fit with the bearings..................This shop has multiple peoples choice awards right up to 2019 and the owner was not happy but cool with me. Imagine as a professional sending something like this out? It's very basic and very important to have the right crank with the correct bearings! I got a refund on the machining.
The builders only suggestion was to add the ARP bolts to the rods and shot peen them, good stuff for this build. He took into account what I wanted very well and made a good suggestion. I wanted the stronger forged pistons as I popped the top ring land on an early blown build with a poor tune. I want this one to hold-up in the case of bad gas and usually carry some octane boost ( or Beeno if it 's me, Ha! ). I know how quick that happened and I want the reassurance it wont again.
I believe there is an advantage to internal balancing but I got to look it up. I have never had to replace a flexplate nor solid front balancer like these are. I've had the rubber go enough it spun a harmonic balancer on a ford. I don't see a problem, but I have an extra balancer they could have used had they talked to me.
I took the crank in, they measured it and sent me back home yesterday with standard sized bearings for the crank and rods. I am going to measure again to be sure, but installed it and it rotates freely. I will pull it this evening/afternoon and go over the measurements for bearings, end-play, and thrust bearing. Yah some would say to get all the measurements first, but I do trust the machine shop and measurements we had taken. I got new tools and want to go over all of it as I build it : ) Measurement with accurate tools is better than utilizing plastigages. Ha, had I layed a plastigage on it it would have spread around the journal.
I am happy to get to build on it this evening and weekend! Thanks for the replies, it helps!
I am using assembly oil that the machine shop uses. I need to check into engine oil for break-in? Anything special needed or standard 10W30?
Blown
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Balancing: This one is actually internally and externally balanced. They drilled the flex plate but did not drill the front balancer/pulley, though the balancer is not neutral.............................
"Generally speaking, internal balance is the better option. External counterweights can cause the crankshaft to flex at high rpm. This can cause engine damage. However, either type of balance is fine for most engines."
Redline on this build is likely about 5,300RPM, so balancing internal vs external is not an issue.
"Generally speaking, internal balance is the better option. External counterweights can cause the crankshaft to flex at high rpm. This can cause engine damage. However, either type of balance is fine for most engines."
Redline on this build is likely about 5,300RPM, so balancing internal vs external is not an issue.
DP96XLT
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Most break-in is done with NON-DETERGENT oil. Just a FYI. (10w30 is fine for break-in compared to even a 5w30 on a 5w30 spec'd engine)
Once break-in is done you will be dumping it anyways.
Honestly, there is an argument that you don't want to use synthetic for the first 250-500 miles, and the concern there is that the rings wear-in and that everything that needs to take a "finish" does. If this is a race/high-hp build you usually see enough RPMs and pressures during those first 250 miles that it doesn't matter too much, but being a mild street build, I would go with standard dino oil 5w30 for the first 500 and then put in whatever you want to run long-term.
I have two blown 383 f-bodies in the garage, one with over 1000hp on boost alone (>1300hp on boost + nitrous) and the other at around 750hp boosted... I built both engines, designed the cams, blueprinted, even ported the heads on the one with more HP... One is running a S-Trim SQ and the other a good-old cog-driven T-Trim. Both have aftercoolers and all the trimmings.
Once you go boosted, you really can't have it any other way... My wife even asked if I could add a supercharger to the v6 Explorer...
Once break-in is done you will be dumping it anyways.
Honestly, there is an argument that you don't want to use synthetic for the first 250-500 miles, and the concern there is that the rings wear-in and that everything that needs to take a "finish" does. If this is a race/high-hp build you usually see enough RPMs and pressures during those first 250 miles that it doesn't matter too much, but being a mild street build, I would go with standard dino oil 5w30 for the first 500 and then put in whatever you want to run long-term.
I have two blown 383 f-bodies in the garage, one with over 1000hp on boost alone (>1300hp on boost + nitrous) and the other at around 750hp boosted... I built both engines, designed the cams, blueprinted, even ported the heads on the one with more HP... One is running a S-Trim SQ and the other a good-old cog-driven T-Trim. Both have aftercoolers and all the trimmings.
Once you go boosted, you really can't have it any other way... My wife even asked if I could add a supercharger to the v6 Explorer...
DP96XLT
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In regards to the external balance causing crankshaft flex, that is a by-product of harmonics and it is most certainly dependent on the configuration you are running. If it is a well known problem then ALL flexplates/pressure-plates end up getting zero balanced on those setups. If not, then it usually happens with BIG strokers or turning a ton of RPM with a given combo.
My point being that you can tell your flexplate is NOT zero balanced. Not with all that weight on one side. An internal balance means that they need a zero balanced balancer and a zero balanced flexplate/pressure-plate. Yours is most certainly externally balanced. And that was the point I, and others, were making is that if you are going externally balanced, they need all the external parts 100% stock to get the internals setup to use the stock parts.
If the flywheel pics you posted are 100% stock and untouched by the machine shop then you are good to go. If not I would seriously consider getting a stock flexplate and telling them it needs to be balanced to a stock flexplate/balancer (ie, externally balanced). If they say it is internally balanced, then verify that the flexplate you have is ZERO balanced. If they say it is not then you will be totally screwed if you ever have to replace the flexplate.
Based on the screwups prior with the bearings I wouldn't trust much now. Saying an employee was no longer working there is one I have heard before, regardless if it is true or not.
My point being that you can tell your flexplate is NOT zero balanced. Not with all that weight on one side. An internal balance means that they need a zero balanced balancer and a zero balanced flexplate/pressure-plate. Yours is most certainly externally balanced. And that was the point I, and others, were making is that if you are going externally balanced, they need all the external parts 100% stock to get the internals setup to use the stock parts.
If the flywheel pics you posted are 100% stock and untouched by the machine shop then you are good to go. If not I would seriously consider getting a stock flexplate and telling them it needs to be balanced to a stock flexplate/balancer (ie, externally balanced). If they say it is internally balanced, then verify that the flexplate you have is ZERO balanced. If they say it is not then you will be totally screwed if you ever have to replace the flexplate.
Based on the screwups prior with the bearings I wouldn't trust much now. Saying an employee was no longer working there is one I have heard before, regardless if it is true or not.
Blown
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Your a know it all, and post too much. I wonder if you really looked at what I am building and you offer mistrust? So, I am going to take you to task.
I am going with my machine shop, local help, and am not building at all what you post about. Good on you and yer builds.
I too am intelligent and could blueprint an engine and did look into it, but this is not that engine! My decision. I could train and learn everything you are posting and it's more than I need for this build. That's why I posted about running the stock cam and lower RPM yatta yetta sheeesh, get it?
I see a great balancing job on the flex plate. I would assume the small knicks they took out of the flex plate are for fine balancing. You would have me return it and have them start over? I research and am very educated to teach myself and see no problem with the fine balancing of this rotating assembly. It had a combination of internal and external balancing stock and now is definitely balanced very finely, well and good for what I want and will run great. If you look back at the picture I posted of the flex plate after balancing, either they ran a bunch of bullsnot holes, or actually did a fine balancing job!!!!! They are probably idiots as I am for accepting this BShot flex plate balance job and this shop with multiple years of awards, trophy's ETC ETC sucks bad and they tricked me.
(I posted pics a couple post back and you missed the the flex plate. It is drilled for balance, you missed it.)
I am not trying to be a dick, it comes naturally when someone jumps-in offering more advice than needed without knowing the build and just as you said about machine shops, dude talking and selling you stuff and information you don't even need for your build. This is not but a little 302 with a small amount of boost, digging the low end torque and not at all what you have built and it suits me just fine, and thank you........................
I am going with my machine shop, local help, and am not building at all what you post about. Good on you and yer builds.
I too am intelligent and could blueprint an engine and did look into it, but this is not that engine! My decision. I could train and learn everything you are posting and it's more than I need for this build. That's why I posted about running the stock cam and lower RPM yatta yetta sheeesh, get it?
I see a great balancing job on the flex plate. I would assume the small knicks they took out of the flex plate are for fine balancing. You would have me return it and have them start over? I research and am very educated to teach myself and see no problem with the fine balancing of this rotating assembly. It had a combination of internal and external balancing stock and now is definitely balanced very finely, well and good for what I want and will run great. If you look back at the picture I posted of the flex plate after balancing, either they ran a bunch of bullsnot holes, or actually did a fine balancing job!!!!! They are probably idiots as I am for accepting this BShot flex plate balance job and this shop with multiple years of awards, trophy's ETC ETC sucks bad and they tricked me.
(I posted pics a couple post back and you missed the the flex plate. It is drilled for balance, you missed it.)
I am not trying to be a dick, it comes naturally when someone jumps-in offering more advice than needed without knowing the build and just as you said about machine shops, dude talking and selling you stuff and information you don't even need for your build. This is not but a little 302 with a small amount of boost, digging the low end torque and not at all what you have built and it suits me just fine, and thank you........................
DP96XLT
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Blown, you obviously don't care to listen to common sense and logic. You also can take your attitude and keep it. You are the only one here having an issue.
Is is obvious you have a problem understanding what is being talked about, we were only trying to give you advice to keep you from having issues. If you don't care to listen, so be it, but then don't post on a forum where you will get feedback from plenty who have "been there, done that" many times.
It is obvious you have a chip on your shoulder, so I won't post in your thread from here on out. But, misinformation is just that, misinformation. I think it is the responsibility of those that know better to correct misinformation, otherwise people get a false sense of "knowledge".
To finish up, your assembly may be balanced, but it is not "neutral" balanced or "internally" balanced. Yours is balanced based on the combination of parts, which, cannot be replaced piece-meal (as is "required" to repair things if/when they fail). That was the point being made. The actual machining of the various parts to balance of the assembly as a whole doesn't matter, as long as it is balanced.
Good luck with the build.
Is is obvious you have a problem understanding what is being talked about, we were only trying to give you advice to keep you from having issues. If you don't care to listen, so be it, but then don't post on a forum where you will get feedback from plenty who have "been there, done that" many times.
It is obvious you have a chip on your shoulder, so I won't post in your thread from here on out. But, misinformation is just that, misinformation. I think it is the responsibility of those that know better to correct misinformation, otherwise people get a false sense of "knowledge".
To finish up, your assembly may be balanced, but it is not "neutral" balanced or "internally" balanced. Yours is balanced based on the combination of parts, which, cannot be replaced piece-meal (as is "required" to repair things if/when they fail). That was the point being made. The actual machining of the various parts to balance of the assembly as a whole doesn't matter, as long as it is balanced.
Good luck with the build.
Blown
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It obvious your a know it all jumping in here with a bunch of unsolicited advice and just had to spew more forth No thanks, it is my thread and my build! Please stay out.
Blown
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- Year, Model & Trim Level
- 2017 Sport
I am done here in this thread. It is public and too many think they need to jump-in and tell you how to do it. I don't like that, don't need or want the BS and then arguments start.................................I get negative and don't need it for what is my hobby and I enjoy.
Thanks for those who contribute appropriately and good luck with your builds.
Thanks for those who contribute appropriately and good luck with your builds.
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Blown
Elite Explorer
- Joined
- December 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,211
- Reaction score
- 965
- City, State
- Montrose, CO
- Year, Model & Trim Level
- 2017 Sport
Sorry man, I get grumpy.
I found the rings to be too tight in the grooves. I think that is "side clearance", supposed to be .001 to .003". I took them back to the shop with a piston and showed them. I got a refund and ordered from Summit some speed pro rings, maker of the piston I am using and they fit with proper side clearance. I used a belt style knife sharpener to open up the top and second ring end gaps to Speed Pro's supercharger specs for under 15lb of boost or .024".
I ordered performance bearings and will have them tomorrow for assembly this weekend. I want the tougher bearings. The stock cam is back in and everything is ready for assembly of the short block.
I found the rings to be too tight in the grooves. I think that is "side clearance", supposed to be .001 to .003". I took them back to the shop with a piston and showed them. I got a refund and ordered from Summit some speed pro rings, maker of the piston I am using and they fit with proper side clearance. I used a belt style knife sharpener to open up the top and second ring end gaps to Speed Pro's supercharger specs for under 15lb of boost or .024".
I ordered performance bearings and will have them tomorrow for assembly this weekend. I want the tougher bearings. The stock cam is back in and everything is ready for assembly of the short block.
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