Need Advice on Supercharging

[zachow3]

Why not just put the truck on a trailer and pull it to the dyno? It would keep you from having to do any datalogging and you wouldnt need a wideband- they have a wideband to use with their dyno ( I am sure)

I asked the shop those same questions. As far as getting the truck down there, the sent me a four page form to list everything about the truck like VIN, PCM code, all mods/alterations, etc. They then can send me a "safe" tune, which I can upload with my Livewire for $45. That will make it possible to drive to the dyno for final tuning. They then will prorate the $45 into the price of the final tune. So essentially I get a free tune out of it.

Couple things to add: Being able to start the truck before final tuning will give me a chance to check for any air/fluid leaks, any belt slippage and generally just give it a good looking over before I waste their time finding this stuff at their shop.
Also it is not an AWD dyno so I will have to remove the front shaft which will skew the power numbers but not affect their ability to tune it. They also said they could road tune it, which would take somewhat longer. They can tune it either way. What ever I decide.
They do have a wideband for use, and I thought since my rear 02 sensors are turned off I would plug the wideband sensor in there. So no, I dont need a wideband. I would like one. It's something I would like to be able to be able to monitor after tuning is done

 

[justin146]

I asked the shop those same questions. As far as getting the truck down there, the sent me a four page form to list everything about the truck like VIN, PCM code, all mods/alterations, etc. They then can send me a "safe" tune, which I can upload with my Livewire for $45. That will make it possible to drive to the dyno for final tuning. They then will prorate the $45 into the price of the final tune. So essentially I get a free tune out of it.

Couple things to add: Being able to start the truck before final tuning will give me a chance to check for any air/fluid leaks, any belt slippage and generally just give it a good looking over before I waste their time finding this stuff at their shop.
Also it is not an AWD dyno so I will have to remove the front shaft which will skew the power numbers but not affect their ability to tune it. They also said they could road tune it, which would take somewhat longer. They can tune it either way. What ever I decide.
They do have a wideband for use, and I thought since my rear 02 sensors are turned off I would plug the wideband sensor in there. So no, I dont need a wideband. I would like one. It's something I would like to be able to be able to monitor after tuning is done

Holestly, they arent going to be able to just send you a tune and it work. It just doesnt work that way- they will send you the first tune, and the truck is going to run like crap. Then you will have to rev it up in steps while datalogging, then send that info to them. It will likely take three trys (at least) to get it driveable.

 

[rocket 5979]

I found this interesting since it applies to my type of supercharger, but I have'nt heard of anyone using one.


Bosch Blow-off Valve for Supercharged Cars



The Problem: Frequent belt failure on belt-driven superchargers.

The Solution: can be as simple as replacing a blow-off valve meant for a Turbo with one properly designed for a supercharged application.

I rarely see this discussed - but I often see this mistake. Pop-off valves for Turbo applications and Blow-Off valves for Superchargers are NOT the same thing, and not interchangeable.

Think of this: you are shifting at or near redline. The blower, at redline, is making maximum boost. Now you lift suddenly off the throttle (to shift, to brake for the corner, whatever) and you slam the throttle body shut. All that boost has no where to go, and runs backwards through the system looking for an escape. The blow-off valve is supposed to be that escape.

A valve for a turbo system will "flutter" - you can hear it if you listen - as it is designed to NOT loose all the back-pressure and keep the turbo spooled-up a little bit. This open-shut-open-shut action in a turbo-type valve pushes the belt-driven Powerdyne sprockets forward-and-back several times a second and the belt takes a beating. These same valves when applied to a gear-driven blower seem to work OK - but its just because the gears can take that kind of abuse where a belt cannot.

A blow-off for a Supercharger is designed differently and will open ONCE and dump the boost like it should on a supercharged system. It is much kinder on belts.

Over years of trial and error (and a LOT of money spent on blow-off valves), I still have not found a better blow-off valve than the one the Bosch engineers designed for boosted applications. Here it is, and at a darn good price too.

One more thing: Test your blow-off valve by making sure it holds vacuum and moves correctly from time-time. They don't last forever!

Cheap insurance, but then again perhaps not necessary for mild boost applications like mine? Just another thought.

I think I need a good kick in the butt. Other then measuring things and dry fittng parts together, I have,nt turned a wrench on the Explorer in a couple weeks. On the other hand I'm not setting a deadline anymore for this build so I'm not pressuring myself. Plus I am behind on the yardwork, so I guess my priorities have shifted somewhat.

I'm with Jakee though, the day I fire up the finished product will be very exciting.

That description of differences between a "turbo pop-off valve" and a "supercharger blowoff valve" is inaccurate. They both function the EXACT same way. It seems that whomever wrote that post you quoted was comparing a turbo wastegate and a supercharger blowoff valve. Those are two TOTALLY different animals altogether. A turbo BOV doesn't flutter, it opens and stays open until all overboost is relieved and then closes again; same as what one will do for a supercharger as well. I will provide you with the proper explanation of what is what here:

First off both a turbo blow off valve and a supercharger blow off valve are the same and operate the same way. Their goal is NOT to regulate the amount of boost you are making but rather to relieve overpressure when backing off the throttle thus closing the TB blade. There are two kinds of blow off valve. You have the kind that vent to atmosphere and the kind that bypass back into the air intake system. Whether or not you choose to use one or the other will total depend on what kind of MAF placement you plan to go with; whether it be blow through or drawthrough. For instance, since I am running the turbo system in my LS with a blowthrough MAF I placed my BOV on the upstream side of the FMIC which is also upstream of the MAF. This allows me to blow straight to atmosphere because the air intake has not yet been metered at that point. If I was running my MAF in drawthrough then it would be smarter to run my BOV in bypass where it vents the overpressure back into the intake so that I still have all airmass in there that was already accounted for by the MAF.

Once you have selected the BOV/bypass valve you want to go with then the next step is to install and adjust it. You will install a manifold vacuum line to the "topside" of the BOV. Some BOV's have a bottom vacuum line. That you can run to a vacuum line you will place in the intake before the TB. The second vacuum line is more an option in allot of cases. The way the BOV or bypass operates is that there is a spring inside the valve that basically puts a little preload on the valve to help keep it closed most of the time. But when you attach that vacuum line to the top of the valve then it will put allot of vacuum which will want to help suck the valve open. Think of it like the engine vacuum trying to pull the valve open and then turbo boost trying to also push it open from the other side. This is what happens when you drive your car and were under boost and then let off quickly. The TB snaps shut and the manifold now transitions from pressure to vacuum while the air intake tube still remains under pressure. These two items combined are what will open the valve and let it do its thing. When normally driving you are not pulling much vacuum and not making much boost so the valve stays closed. Then accellerating you are making boost but your manifold is also seeing that same amount of pressure. That means that your topside vacuum line going to the BOV is seeing the same pressure as what the bottom side of the valve itself is seeing. They counteract each other and keep the BOV/bypass closed when under boost. To adjust the BOV to open at the correct point you will have to set that spring preload so that the valve opens only when it is supposed to. To do this you will first need to establish when you vehicle makes the most manifold vacuum. In most cases in an auto car this is at idle or on decelleration. To keep it simple I would just adjust the BOV/bypass when the car is running at idle and then turn the adjustment screw just a liiitle bit more for good measure. Your goal is to adjust the valve so that it just barely stays closed when under full engine vacuum. What this accomplishes is to allow the BOV/bypass valve to react the most quickly but also still be able to remain shut when not encountering a situation where it needs to relieve overpressure when getting off the gas. Some of the cheaper, or application specific BOV/bypass valves are not adjustable. While they can do the trick quite well an adjustable one will allow you the best performance and valve response.

That quote you posted from someone else was somewhat along the right lines but there were a few glaring inaccuracies that needed to be addressed.

 

[rocket 5979]

You could vent yours to atmosphere if yout MAF was blowthrough. When the meter is before the supercharger or turbocharger, you have to recirculate it so you aren't blowing off metered air. If the BOV is before the meter(like my truck) venting doesnt hurt anything.

Exactly. Actually in the case you describe venting will be even more optimal because it will vent that already heated/compressed air which will allow for cooler IAT's then if you recirculated via a bypass.

 

[zachow3]

Holestly, they arent going to be able to just send you a tune and it work. It just doesnt work that way- they will send you the first tune, and the truck is going to run like crap. Then you will have to rev it up in steps while datalogging, then send that info to them. It will likely take three trys (at least) to get it driveable.

If that is the case then yes, I will need to have it trailered in. I just dont have readilly available access to a car trailer. I will call the shop and ask them about this.

Dont think it would be a very good idea to tell my insurance company that my truck broke down and then needed to be towed to a place called Fast Specialties to get fixed. Google Maps says 6.5 miles from my house to there.

Still if they send me an intial tune for free (in the end) it would still be nice to start it up in the driveway and check for leaks before I brought it down there.

I think a couple forum members warned me about driving the truck on an e-mail tune. I know when I got my Livewire all that was on it were the three pre-programmed tunes. I uploaded eveyone of those and yes the truck ran like crap but it was driveable (under light acceleration). Contacted James at Henson Performance and he remedied the problem right away. He actually sent me four tunes. I have had zero problems with any of those tunes.

 

[CDW6212R]

I would trust the tunes James does more than someone else. He has done a lot of Explorers with boosted engines.

 

[zachow3]

Exactly. Actually in the case you describe venting will be even more optimal because it will vent that already heated/compressed air which will allow for cooler IAT's then if you recirculated via a bypass.

Hold on everyone! It seems I may have stirred the pot a lttle bit here. That was not my intention.

First and foremost I want to eliminate any reference to turbo's. Take that out of the equation. My application is a centifugal supercharger.

The MAF is attached to my air filter. So the air is drawn thru the meter well before it reaches the supercharger. So a recirculating sytem is required since the air charge has already been metered. Correct? And for 6 to 8 or so lbs of boost, a simple non-adjustable bypass valve should be sufficient. Yes they are cheap, made of plastic, not the most effiecient, and so on.

I originally brought up the blow off/pop off/bypass, whatever you want to call it valve, because I have not seen it addressed on this forum. And if running the limited boost I stated above wouldnt be beneficial then I wouldnt even of brought it up.

I know everthing you read is going to have errors and inconsistencies. The quotes I post I cant guarantee their accuracy, but before I post I research and then pick what I think seems the most logical to me in laymens terms since I'm no expert.

Not doing this to get peoples blood boiling. Just asking questions about certain things I dont fully understand. And if I say or qoute something that is way off base, please call me on it.

Thanks to eveyone for your help and support. Just remember the title of the thread (Advice on supercharging) bcause I get confused easily when things start drifting off topic.

 

[zachow3]

I would trust the tunes James does more than someone else. He has done a lot of Explorers with boosted engines.

I agree 100% Don. Kinda feel like I'm on my own with this project up in the Pacific Northwest. The cost to get james ought here is a big factor. This shop I'm looking at, besides being very close to me, specializes in high performance builds. They have SCT certified tuners, and work on a lot of mustangs of various years, but you dont have to have a mustang to use their services. And the price is right. If money was no object, James would have a first-class ticket out here.

 

[CDW6212R]

My hint there was if you got the first tunes from James, can you not ask him for a quick tune to get you to your local programmer? Hopefully James won't be mad at more for suggesting it, I hope he has been paid well enough as he does the work. Regards,

 

[justin146]

Hold on everyone! It seems I may have stirred the pot a lttle bit here. That was not my intention.

First and foremost I want to eliminate any reference to turbo's. Take that out of the equation. My application is a centifugal supercharger.

The MAF is attached to my air filter. So the air is drawn thru the meter well before it reaches the supercharger. So a recirculating sytem is required since the air charge has already been metered. Correct? And for 6 to 8 or so lbs of boost, a simple non-adjustable bypass valve should be sufficient. Yes they are cheap, made of plastic, not the most effiecient, and so on.

I originally brought up the blow off/pop off/bypass, whatever you want to call it valve, because I have not seen it addressed on this forum. And if running the limited boost I stated above wouldnt be beneficial then I wouldnt even of brought it up.

I know everthing you read is going to have errors and inconsistencies. The quotes I post I cant guarantee their accuracy, but before I post I research and then pick what I think seems the most logical to me in laymens terms since I'm no expert.

Not doing this to get peoples blood boiling. Just asking questions about certain things I dont fully understand. And if I say or qoute something that is way off base, please call me on it.

Thanks to eveyone for your help and support. Just remember the title of the thread (Advice on supercharging) bcause I get confused easily when things start drifting off topic.

I cant remember if we talked about this- but you are planning on putting your IAT sensor after the blower outlet arent you?

 

[zachow3]

My hint there was if you got the first tunes from James, can you not ask him for a quick tune to get you to your local programmer? Hopefully James won't be mad at more for suggesting it, I hope he has been paid well enough as he does the work. Regards,

Well James includes custom tuning when you buy a tuner from him like I did with my Livewire, so I would hope he feels he getting properly compensated for his labor too.

I had hoped to have James do the tuning once I had the S/C installed, but he prefers to be with the vehicle for boosted applications. And this project being so far over budget, the money just isnt there to get him out here. James said it could be done remotely, but I would need a wideband (which I dont have) and be able to datalog information (which I dont know how to do) and probably several days and e-mails to get a tune dialed in.

So I thought of possible alternatives. And this local shop can have me in and out in a day for a good price and they take care of all the datalooging and other requirements for me.

I have'nt talked to James about it, but I did bring up a few posts ago about a remote tune to get the truck driveable enough to get it down to the shop (which the shop said they could do) but i'm coming up with resistance from some forum members discouraging this.

 

[zachow3]

I cant remember if we talked about this- but you are planning on putting your IAT sensor after the blower outlet arent you?

Ok, what do you know that I dont. Obviously you have a good reason for asking me that. Actually my answer would be no. My reasoning? I have to put a little (and I do mean little) faith that powerdyne knows something about thier own products.
The installation manual has you installing it in the (useless for me) airbox that came with the kit. At the base of the airfilter and before the MAF. See the picture of the airbox upside down and that rubber grommet hole. Thats where I am told it goes. But that box wont work for my setup. Note the 4" pipe. So I was think of installing it in that 90 deg elbow.

Why after The S/C outlet?

 

[justin146]

Why after The S/C outlet?

If the sensor is before the filter, you wont get a true IAT reading. This is because the blower will heat the air as it compresses it. Its pretty simple to add a sensor- just weld in a bung on the tube after the blower.

 

[CDW6212R]

I agree with Justin, place it after the supercharger, nearest to the intake manifold. The affect is more accurate inlet air temperature readings for the PCM. The tune is affected by that, it will be more accurate to tune it there instead of at the air filter.

The powerdyne people are possibly still dealing with a lot of older Mustang engines with old PCM's, EECIV etc. that don't have the nice tuning options that you do.

 

[zachow3]

If the sensor is before the filter, you wont get a true IAT reading. This is because the blower will heat the air as it compresses it. Its pretty simple to add a sensor- just weld in a bung on the tube after the blower.

If thats where I have to put it then my stock sensor probably isnt going to work. It's made of plastic and press fits into a grommet. The pressure in the tube would probably blow it out.

Are you using your stock IAT sensor? Is it threaded?
Also the outlet tube to the T/B is made of plastic. So welding is out. Looks like i will need to take a trip to the muffler shop and pick up some tubing.

This is what I had planned to use...

 

[zachow3]

I agree with Justin, place it after the supercharger, nearest to the intake manifold. The affect is more accurate inlet air temperature readings for the PCM. The tune is affected by that, it will be more accurate to tune it there instead of at the air filter.

The powerdyne people are possibly still dealing with a lot of older Mustang engines with old PCM's, EECIV etc. that don't have the nice tuning options that you do.

Please dont get me started with Powerdyne.

I'm half tempted to take apart the head unit and see if there is actually anything inside.

 

[CDW6212R]

Sorry, I don't know anything about them, just what I run across here, so I'm learning from you. I do like to make fun of the pre OBDII Mustang guys who spend hundreds and even over $1000 in parts that are useless to us. I have a 91 Mark VII that I hope to yank the operating system out and install the better Explorer system into.

 

[zachow3]

Sorry, I don't know anything about them, just what I run across here, so I'm learning from you. I do like to make fun of the pre OBDII Mustang guys who spend hundreds and even over $1000 in parts that are useless to us. I have a 91 Mark VII that I hope to yank the operating system out and install the better Explorer system into.

I didnt know anything about Powerdyne either other then they offered a supercharger kit for our Explorers for considerably less money than other manufacturers. I dont know when they stopped making the Explorer kits, but it must have been awhile ago. They were unobtainable. I tried everywhere. You just could'nt find them. I think is was close to a month of searching and finally deciding to go with a Vortech unit (more money) that I got an e-mail from a company who by some miracle got their hands on a Powerdyne kit. So I snapped it up. I felt like I won the lottery.

Thats when reality set in. After the box showed up, I eagerly unpacked it so I could see my rare find. Everything was well protected. Nothing looked damage. I laid everything out to inventory. But there was no parts list. All I had was a very thin 6 page installation manual and half of that are pictures the insrtuctions refer you to that doesnt even show you what thier talking about. Only after reading and trying to decipher the instructions did I realize I was missing a few things. Most was some hardware, no big deal, but I was missing a grooved idler pulley for the drive belt. I called Powerdyne but could only get ahold of a salesmen who had no clue what I was saying. I e-mailed their tech support and never got a response. Ive looked for a powerdyne forum. Couldnt find one. Wonder why?
I could of had the Vortech for what Ive had to buy to replace missing/inferior parts. But I'm stuck with it and slowly seeng light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess I could be lumped in with those Mustang owners. Oh well, why be frustrated over something you have no control over.

And yet, remembering I'm not bitter, I can still tell Powerdyne to kiss my ....

 

[zachow3]

If the sensor is before the filter, you wont get a true IAT reading. This is because the blower will heat the air as it compresses it. Its pretty simple to add a sensor- just weld in a bung on the tube after the blower.

Found this at Summit Racing. Same price on e-bay. $19

 

[Jakee]

I have a tial 50 MM BOV and it does flutter when the pressure is low (2-3LBS). If the boost is on up there, it will vent great; when the boost is low and I get off the throttle, I get a flutter sound.

tffff tfffff tffff tffff tfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff (Kind of like that)