need some tranny advice

[malcolm2]

need some tranny advice (FIXED!)

my 01 Mountaineer has 240K miles on it. 5.0 liter AWD.
A couple years ago, I was getting an occasional "wash-board" sound changing into 2nd gear.

I drained it, replaced the filter and pan gasket and the sound went away. It was alittle ruff or hard shifting into 2nd but the timing was right and it always shifted.

This weekend that problem increased. It now has to rev to 3100 rpm before it will shift to 2nd. This happens every time.

Any thoughts? Is it toast? Is this a natural progression of the age and miles?

Thanks,

Clark

 

[malcolm2]

any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[SWIGIN]

Time for a rebuild.

 

[malcolm2]

Time for a rebuild.

While that could be the result, I was curious why? And hopeful that there was an easier of cheaper option to repair...

Once I found the model # of the tranz (4R70W), I started doing specific Google Searches. FYI for future searchers: The 1st one on the list was this....

http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ford/4.6L-5.4L/how-can-i-tell-if-my-transmission-is-bad-2

Great info, but his "problems" do not match my problem exactly. Maybe it is just how he words slipping. He says, "The number one symptom that will let you know that the 4R70W automatic transmission, in your Ford car, pick-up, or SUV has internal damage (and which requires an overhaul) is the fact that it ‘slips’."

Slip is defined, by him as never shifting.... going into neutral no matter how much you press the accelerator. Mine will shift, there is just a longer than usual delay, resulting in higher than usual revs prior to shifting. So it is a little different.

 

[Turdle]

Well, a DIY you could perform would be to drop the pan and check the accumulator valves and springs. ( I bet one is broken). This can be repaired at home with a "shift kit"

Another less likely culprit would be the Throttle position sensor. It is also used as the "kickdown" for downshifting, if the TPS output is too high it will cause a delayed upshift.





Let us know what you find.

 

[96eb96]

Older 4R70Ws (pre 98) would very commonly break 1-2 accumulator springs and have this symptom. There is lots of info on the web with this. They would also have a old style accumulator piston which would require replacement. I would start by popping the 1-2 accumulator cover, it is very easy to access, get good snap ring pliers to take it off, be careful it don't shoot out. Again, search the web, plenty of info. Inspect the spring (as other said) and the piston too.

 

[koda2000]

The kind of things that effect transmission operation are:

Lack of maintenance
Low fluid level
Worn out clutch packs
Worn out or broken bands
Bad pump
Electrical problems
Internal leaks due to blown gaskets/seals
Broken internal parts
Bad torque converter

IMO, while some DIY'ers are capable of rebuilding an automatic transmission, most of us would do better to have it professionally rebuilt (and getting a warranty). Otherwise you're in for a lot of work and likely in for a poor result. An automatic transmission has many 100th's of parts and it is the most complicated piece of your truck. Knowing what's wrong usually requires total dis-assembly, then knowing what to look for and knowing what to replace. I do nearly 100% of my own repairs, but an automatic transmission is not something I would attempt to repair. If you want to try there are some relatively easy things you can try w/out having to remove the transmission (like replacing solenoids, springs and valve body gaskets) but w/out proper diagnosis you might just be wasting your time and money.

The 4R70W is one of Fords better, more reliable transmissions, but all auto transmissions eventually wear out. At 240k you're getting to where you can expect problems. Some transmission will last longer, some not as long. A lot depends on luck, maintenance and how/where the vehicle was driven/used. You can have it rebuilt or try a used transmission, but buying used you don't know what you're getting. You might get a good one, but being 15-20 years old it probably will have a lot of miles on it.

The 2 things that tend to put Gen II Explorer's in the salvage yard are SOHC V6 timing chain and transmission problems, which are more common on the V6 trans. If you have to spend a couple of grand having a trans rebuilt on an '01 you have to first ask yourself it's worth it? Have you been maintaining the vehicle well and doing PM and replacing parts as necessary? Is the engine burning oil and/or making noise? How many more miles do you expect to get out of it?

I have a very nice '01 EB 5.0L RWD with under 200k on it. It was well maintained by it's PO and I also keep up with it's maintenance. If the transmission went out on it tomorrow I'd have it rebuilt, no doubt about it. If the trans went out on my '97 Sport with 265k+ on it, it would get scrapped or parted out in a heartbeat. If my '00 XLT 5.0L or either if my '00 Mountaineer's transmission's go out I'd really have to think hard about having them repaired them due to their general condition and number of miles.

 

[SWIGIN]

While that could be the result, I was curious why? And hopeful that there was an easier of cheaper option to repair...

Wouldn't we all like a easier and cheaper option but with well over 200k you should feel blessed it lasted as long as it did and now do it a favor and rebuild it.

The 4R70W is a great tranny but they all ware out. Your clutch plates will be very hardened and thin if there is any material left at all after all those miles.

You can mess around with it and try anything you like but with those miles I'd just rebuild it and go for another care free 200k plus.

 

[SPSully]

The kind of things that effect transmission operation are:

Lack of maintenance
Low fluid level
Worn out clutch packs
Worn out or broken bands
Bad pump
Electrical problems
Internal leaks due to blown gaskets/seals
Broken internal parts
Bad torque converter

IMO, while some DIY'ers are capable of rebuilding an automatic transmission, most of us would do better to have it professionally rebuilt (and getting a warranty). Otherwise you're in for a lot of work and likely in for a poor result. An automatic transmission has many 100th's of parts and it is the most complicated piece of your truck. Knowing what's wrong usually requires total dis-assembly, then knowing what to look for and knowing what to replace. I do nearly 100% of my own repairs, but an automatic transmission is not something I would attempt to repair. If you want to try there are some relatively easy things you can try w/out having to remove the transmission (like replacing solenoids, springs and valve body gaskets) but w/out proper diagnosis you might just be wasting your time and money.

The 4R70W is one of Fords better, more reliable transmissions, but all auto transmissions eventually wear out. At 240k you're getting to where you can expect problems. Some transmission will last longer, some not as long. A lot depends on luck, maintenance and how/where the vehicle was driven/used. You can have it rebuilt or try a used transmission, but buying used you don't know what you're getting. You might get a good one, but being 15-20 years old it probably will have a lot of miles on it.

The 2 things that tend to put Gen II Explorer's in the salvage yard are SOHC V6 timing chain and transmission problems, which are more common on the V6 trans. If you have to spend a couple of grand having a trans rebuilt on an '01 you have to first ask yourself it's worth it? Have you been maintaining the vehicle well and doing PM and replacing parts as necessary? Is the engine burning oil and/or making noise? How many more miles do you expect to get out of it?

I have a very nice '01 EB 5.0L RWD with under 200k on it. It was well maintained by it's PO and I also keep up with it's maintenance. If the transmission went out on it tomorrow I'd have it rebuilt, no doubt about it. If the trans went out on my '97 Sport with 265k+ on it, it would get scrapped or parted out in a heartbeat. If my '00 XLT 5.0L or either if my '00 Mountaineer's transmission's go out I'd really have to think hard about having them repaired them due to their general condition and number of miles.

I agree with everything he said.... This is the most honest bit of info you can get the interwebs

 

[crunchie_frog]

Well, a DIY you could perform would be to drop the pan and check the accumulator valves and springs. ( I bet one is broken). This can be repaired at home with a "shift kit"

Another less likely culprit would be the Throttle position sensor. It is also used as the "kickdown" for downshifting, if the TPS output is too high it will cause a delayed upshift.





Let us know what you find.

Of the four 5.0 4R70W AWD vehicles I own, two of them had the spring broken on the 1-2 accumulator when I bought them at ~150k miles. I think the spring was about $5 and it is a relatively simple repair. It caused hard shift from 1st to second and it is certainly worth checking out before you pull, rebuild or replace. Also, there in Nashville you have a Pull-A-Part junkyard and they likely will have a vehicle like yours that you can pull the transmission and try it. Just look for one that is wrecked and be sure it comes from one that has an AWD and is 98,99,00, or 01. The AWD has a shorter tail housing and one from a 2-WD will not fit. I am guessing the transmissions are around $100.

 

[malcolm2]

Thanks to all,

Well I have procrastinated until today. Did everything I could to NOT work on the Mountaineer. I have dropped the pan and cleaned up the mess. I guess I need to find out about this spring....

I don't want to rebuild it myself, but I am sure I could remove it and put it back in. I have done that about 5 times with other cars I own.

There is a place in Nashville that will take the tranz and rebuild it. But he was 3 times more costly with my son's civic. So I found a guy in SC.

I guess there are pluses and minuses for that... you don't know where your new tranz has been or what had to be done to it. You can only go on rep for the rebuilder of yours, or a swap.

any recommendations on swapping vs. having someone rebuild mine?

Off to research this spring....

 

[malcolm2]

I found a few videos and pictures. They always want to show you how AFTER they take the tranz out... HA HA.

https://youtu.be/MqmsHE0JLtYthis video

uses a nice ho-made tool to compress the springs. I am not sure if it will work exactly like in the vid, cause the valve body is removed. But it looks easy enough to make and modify.. he starts the 1-2 acc. work at 9 minutes.

He also replaces the 1-2 piston and cap. I will remove the 1-2 acc. next. If I find a broken spring, I'll see if I can buy it all.

I am not hopeful here. I am never lucky enough to find a $5 fix.

 

[malcolm2]

Thank the lord.....

My snap ring pliers were too small. I was able to take the pressure off of the 1-2 cap with a piece of conduit and my floor jack..... then I said, why not try a stiff pair of needle nose pliers...TA DA>>>>>

Look what came out.

https://goo.gl/photos/3rkcMytSLvwLxpuo8

I can't believe it. I finally caught a break. I sure hope my ford dealer has one, cause I want to have this baby running again. I could not find just the 1-2 spring and piston and seals. Seems everything comes from Oregon and you have to buy every damn spring in the tranz.

anyone have an east coast vendor for JUST this?

 

[FPGT24]

That's a helluva lot of miles for one of our transmissions. It's not worth trying to figure out a problem with a trans that has that kinda miles. I'd just replace it with a lower mileage unit, or rebuild it.

 

[malcolm2]

That's a helluva lot of miles for one of our transmissions. It's not worth trying to figure out a problem with a trans that has that kinda miles. I'd just replace it with a lower mileage unit, or rebuild it.

The problem has been figured out. The spring is broken... A $5 part. I am not rebuilding anything, or replacing anything but the $5 spring..... if I can find one or 2 whatever the replacement set up is.

This vehicle has been taken care of and might last another 100K.... And I am just the man to try. no need to throw money at it, or put some unknown tranz in it... did you look at the picture?

 

[FPGT24]

The problem has been figured out. The spring is broken... A $5 part. I am not rebuilding anything, or replacing anything but the $5 spring..... if I can find one or 2 whatever the replacement set up is.

This vehicle has been taken care of and might last another 100K.... And I am just the man to try. no need to throw money at it, or put some unknown tranz in it... did you look at the picture?

Gotcha. Didn't read thru the thread...my bad.

 

[malcolm2]

Well, a DIY you could perform would be to drop the pan and check the accumulator valves and springs. ( I bet one is broken). This can be repaired at home with a "shift kit"

Another less likely culprit would be the Throttle position sensor. It is also used as the "kickdown" for downshifting, if the TPS output is too high it will cause a delayed upshift.





Let us know what you find.

1st off, a BIG THANKS goes to TURDLE.

With some additional searching based on your suggestion of the accumulator, I found my problem.

The hard part was finding parts for just the 1-2 accum. Lots of shift kits as you suggested. So I ended up going to the Dealer. 5 days later I have my new dual spring, piston and cap. The upper spring was not broken and maybe never breaks, cause Ford has discontinued it. Best part is all that only cost $36.

I picked up the parts at 4pm and was totally done by 7:30 including a new filter, pan gasket, fluid, engine oil change (while your in there thing), tools back in the tool box, garage cleaned, test drive and beer opened.... she shifts like she was new.

While I knew I was not going to dismantle my tranz much more than I did, I am so glad I went this far. Ain't the internet great? I suggest to anyone that wants to take the easy way out and send it to a REBUILDER, to just dig alittle deeper, you might save $3 grand !!:smoke:

 

[Turdle]

Congrats on a successful repair!

Feels good huh?

 

[crunchie_frog]

Bet that was one good tasting beer, huh? Glad you found the problem and fixed it yourself. Lots of helpful tips and folks on this forum.

 

[SWIGIN]

Be sure to keep us updated on how long till you have more problems and need to pull it.