Oil

[atty]

You're on. I think that's an excellent idea.
I, too, have waded through numerous posts regarding oil change intervals vs. synthetics vs. dino, and I agree that a little lab analysis is the only way to get a real grip on the question. It would also be a good way to establish a lab source as well as the associated costs.

I think the bottom line is that all of us drive under such varying conditions that it wouldn't be suprising to find that our oil maintenance would vary as well. What I did in Florida for auto maintenance doesn't have a great deal of relevance now that I'm bouncing over the dusty, desert terrain of Arizona with Summer temps running 20-25 deg. higher than what I was used to.

I am particularly interested in your offer because you are running Mobile One. I have 35K on the odometer now and have been running Mobile One since the 6K mark. Oil changes at 3-5K along with filter. I now have Amsoil in stock and plan to make that change at the next interval. The only real way to see any difference, if any, is by the scrutiny of a lab.

Let me know what you find out, and count me in on the offer.

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Wayne O. Smith
'97 XLT 4.0 OHC

 

[AgExplorer]

Gerald,

I'll take you up on your offer to run the Mobil 1 for 10k miles. If you will e-mail me your shipping address, I will have two oil analysis kits sent out to you. The kits are postage paid. I would like you to do one analysis at 5k (when you plan to change the filter) and the other at 10k. I will also need to communicate with you on how to take the samples without contaminating them.

The analysis will be done by Oil Analyzers. I have used these guys for over 2 years doing oil analysis on my vehicles. The reports are very comprehensive and will give you all the details on how your oil and Explorer are performing. If you don't mind, I would also like to have them send me a copy to better assist you with interpreting the report.

I have been using AMSOIL and have been extremely pleased with the wear protection and durability of the motor oil. The oil analysis I have performed has been very useful in determining when to change filters and/or oil. It has also helped my diagnose some maintenance items that otherwise I would not have noticed.

Gary

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AgExplorer
95 XLT 4X2 4.0L OHV

 

[GJarrett]

Well, this is what I get for opening my big trap. You're on.

Gary, I'll email you my address and phone number. I'm at 28,500 miles right now so the 5k filter change isn't too far away.

How long does it take to get lab results once they are turned in? Once I get over 10k I'd like to not have to wait too long to find out how the oil is holding up, if you know what I mean.

This is gonna be interesting!


------------------
Gerald
"Nerves of Steel; Brain of Chipmunk"
~~~~~~~~~
'99 Eddie Bauer 4x4 4.0L SOHC-mods listed in my Explorer Registry post 7/8/99
Dead Link Removed "What the heck is he doing out here in that thing?"



[This message has been edited by GJarrett (edited 02-28-2000).]

 

[AgExplorer]

Gerald,

Thank you for taking me up on my offer. You may be surprised (good stuff) at what we find through the oil analysis.

The results usually take anywhere from 7 to 10 business after you mail it. You should be in no danger. If the lab finds something seriously wrong, they will call you. I personally know of this only happening once, and it was not for a personal vehicle.

I am looking forward to working with you on this "experiment".

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AgExplorer
95 XLT 4X2 4.0L OHV

 

[Rooster]

Gentlemen,
Like myself, I think there are a few of us who would be interested in the oil test analysis as well. Could you plese post the results as they become available.

------------------
Rooster
94 sport (stock)
78 F-250 (2wd)

 

[Gigantor]

You dont mind doing this to your truck? I think its a great idea to do this type of test but it is risky. Best of luck. I will be checking back to see the results.

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Nick
'93 XLT 4 Door 4x4
Bosch Plat+4's with SplitFire Dual Core wires and a
K&N Air Filter with a Modified Air Box

 

[GJarrett]

If I thought I was truly risking my engine, I wouldn't do it.

I am making what I believe is a reasonable assumption based on my prior experience. That assumption is that we are being overly conservative in our oil changes. Factors I consider in this assumption:

1) I ran an aircooled Kawasaki motorcyle something like 80,000 miles from 1977 until 1983 changing oil (non-syn of course) every 4,000 miles. Sometimes I didn't get around to it until after 5,000 miles. Complete engine teardown at 75,000 miles for an unrelated issue revealed the innards -- cylinders, rings, valves, etc -- in great shape. It was geared to run much higher RPMs than autos, so I consider the 80k miles equal to much greater auto miles not only because of the abuse it took being aircooled but also the greater amount of RPMs it cycled getting there.

2) Same 4,000 - 5,000 mile schedule, Ford 289, somewhere over a quarter-million miles.

3) Same schedule, 1977 Olds Cutlass 350, 150,000+ miles. This engine had lotsa problems but none were oil related.

4) Same schedule, 1987 Honda, 270,000 miles.

5) Same schedule, 1993 Taurus, 120,000 miles.

RE: all of the above (scheduled change at 4,000 but sometimes stretched it to 5,000+), I have NEVER had an oil-related breakdown. Nearly fourteen years ago when I bought the Honda the suggested change interval was 7,500 miles; same for the newer Taurus. Oil is much better now than it was fourteen years ago, and MUCH better than what I ran through that aircooled engine twenty years ago.

I am now running the best sythetic that we have in the current day. I do not think it is a stretch to think that it will be capable of performing admirably for 2,500 miles longer than the suggested non-syn oil change of the vehicle I bought thirteen and a half years ago with the oils available at that time. The preliminary check at the 5k filter change that Gary is providing me with will provide an interim "insurance" analysis at the same mileage that I have often changed my non-syns at in my previous vehicles.

Gerald


[This message has been edited by GJarrett (edited 02-28-2000).]

 

[2mrchio]

Here's an anecdote that will get you to cringe like I did when I first heard. I have a coworker who bought a Toyota station wagon new 13 years ago and recently traded it in for a Honda something-or-other. Anyway, for both vehicles he uses synthetic oil, and changes his oil only once a year, only making sure that it is full. Dead Link Removed


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Brian Tomarchio
1993 XLT 4x4

 

[01EB5.0]

Thanks for doing this..it will help a lot of us settle the argument about the langth of time to run the oil. Keep us posted!


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TravisN1@AOL.COM
1995 XLT 4x4

 

[raven2]

Can you ask the oil lab pepole if this is true, which may strike up more debate.

Back in chemistry class, a professor here in Pennsylvania, stated that PA oil such as Quaker State (our nickname) Pennzoil (for Pennsylvania oil) and Wolf head, is better than southern oil, such as those from Texas, because PA. oil is alkaline base petroleum, and the south oil is acid base. The alkaline being better corrosion protection, and producing less damaging sediment.

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91 Sport
"Drive it like ya stold it"

 

[AgExplorer]

Raven,

I don't know if there is really an advantage to where the oil comes from as far as it applies to automotive use. The base stock for motor oil is the very last thing that is taken from crude. Gasoline, other fuels, and a myriad of other things come out first. The additives that are blended with the base stock are responsible for fighting acid formation. This component is called the Total Base Number or TBN. The higher this number, the better the motor oil will be at preventing acid formation. Most motor oils will have a TBN in the 5 to 6 range and some synthetics may get as high as 8. I know of one manufacturer that takes their TBN to 12.

The oil analysis Gerald is doing will only tell how the oil will perform in his Explorer. Each vehicle, just like people, performs differently. The only way to tell how the oil (and your vehicle) is performing is to do oil analysis. Just think of it as a blood test for your Explorer.

Brian, I know a lot of people who only change their oil once a year, or longer, including myself. I personally know someone who has almost 50k on his current oil. Most are performing oil analysis and all are changing the filters at regular intervals. Sure is nice to schedule this during the spring or fall. I hated getting under my vehicles to change oil in the middle of summer here in Houston.
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AgExplorer
95 XLT 4X2 4.0L OHV

[This message has been edited by AgExplorer (edited 03-02-2000).]

 

[SteveVB]

Very interesting thread. I have no doubt that Gerald should have no problems with his vehicle. I had a Dodge van that I used to change the oil (dino) evry 15k or so and it had no engine related problems up to 220k, change my Navajo oil every 4-5000 which is probably to soon, so it will be interesting to see the results of this test.

I dont think I have a vehicle that has a recommended oil change interval of less than 7,500 miles (navajo included) ex. my wifes volvo is 5000 (a turbo engine I guess).
Have we all been conditioned to the 3000 mile by the oil companies/ oil change shops that benefit from the increased change frequency?

------------------
Steve VB
91 Navajo
2 1/2" Rancho,
31" Goodyear AT/S

 

[Peter Weber]

I've just been reading thru this whole discussion about oil change frequency and personally agree with Gerald that nobody seems to have a definitive answer. While I applaud his willingness to put up his Explorer for the high mileage experiment, I also believe that it won't prove anything.
His Eddie Bauer has approx.30k miles on it. Current technology (engine and oil) will keep any engine running at least 100k miles. After 38 years of car ownership (16 vehicles if I can trust my memory) I can offer the following:
Country of vehicle manufacture:
American: Ford 3, GM 2, Chrysler 1
German: Mercedes 2, BMW 2, VW 2, Porsche 1
Japanese: Nissan 1, Toyota 1
British: Austin Healey 1
The only real problem that could be considered oil related was a worn down camshaft lobe on a '76 Malibu after 25K miles. They tried to weasel out of repairing it under warranty by claiming that I hadn't changed the oil in 4 month (5000 miles, calling for change every 7500 or 3 month under extreme conditions). After determining what is defined as extreme conditions, they agreed that it probably was defective and fixed it.
I normally follow the vehicle manufacturer recommended oil change intervals.
Outside the instance with the Malibu, oil related problems were limited to smoking (valves) after either high mileage (over 150K miles) or abuse. Used the Porsche for club events like slaloms and rallying. It started to burn oil after 90K.
The one thing I do though is to change the oil on any new vehicle after the first 1000 miles.
My current vehicles, maintenance schedule and status are as follows:
1. '99 Explorer Sport: 12K miles, oil change every 5K, no problems. I will go to synthetic at about 20K.
2. '96 BMW 328i conv (my wife's car): 32K miles, oil change when the indicator tells me to do so (normally between 8-10K miles, Mobil 1 ). The way I look at it is this: They spend a lot of money on the technology, I payed for it, I'm going to follow it. Also, at 8K miles per year, I'll sell the car long before it will develop any problems.
3. '72 MB 280SEL 4.5: 270K miles, driven now less then 1000 miles a year. Oil changed about once a year. Before I put it into semi-retirement (7 years ago), it started to burn about a quart every 1500 miles).
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do. I do, however, agree with Gerald that under normal driving conditions, changing your oil every 3000 miles is overkill. But, on the other hand, my Ford dealer charges $19.95 for an oil and filter change. That's less than a tank of gas. If that's what it takes to make anybody feel secure, it's cheap compared to the overall cost of ownership.
JMHO





------------------
Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC V6

 

[GJarrett]

Steve, I haven't seen a manufacturer's recommended oil change frequency less than 7,500 miles in a long time either. Shoot, that Ford 289 had a suggested change interval of 4,000 miles and that's straight from the owner's manual of the vehicle it was in: a 1965 Fairlane, 36 years ago!


Peter, I agree it won't prove anything about long term engine life since mine is way too young. However, I do expect to learn how long a synthetic oil really retains its ability to do its job lubricating and protecting the engine.

I just sent in the first sample. I changed my filter at 30k miles (5k on the oil). Results should be back in a couple of weeks. Stay tuned.

Gerald

[This message has been edited by GJarrett (edited 03-23-2000).]

 

[Peter Weber]

Gerald:
I'm interested in the results of the oil analysis. My guess is that it's good for at least 10K before you'll see any deterioration.


------------------
Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC V6

[This message has been edited by Peter Weber (edited 03-23-2000).]

 

[GJarrett]

ANALYSIS OF 5K OLD OIL IS IN....
Heh heh heh... Wow. Are you guys gonna be interested in this!

First off, let me say the report has put me in information overload and I may need AgExplorer's help here if I misinterpret something. AgExplorer, I assume you got the copy of my report so please add your input.

I got analyses of 32 categories! under three major headings: Physical Properties, Oil Degradation, and Spectrographic Analysis in PPM(parts per million) of trace minerals/wear metals. Whew. As a result, be aware that in this report and the following ones later on, I will skip most of the information and only key in on the relevant ones -- for example, I don't need to bother telling anybody that I had neglible quantities of glycol in my oil. And if I did have it, then it's something wrong in my engine and not yours and so is still irrelevant to this study. Here goes.

Mobil One 5w-30 / 5,000 miles old

Physical Properties:
Viscosity @ 100 degrees Centrigrade, 10.5 cSt. Minimum to Maximum range for 30 weight is 9.3-12.5. Viscosity is dead center in allowable range. Cool.

Oil Degradation: This is what it's all about and what I wanted to learn doing this. How long is this stuff going to last? Well look for yourself! So far;

Soot-- NA, no contaminants. High levels would have indicated combustion problems or extended drain intervals. I guess 5,000 miles isn't an extended drain interval after all, is it? Dead Link Removed
Oxidation, scaled as a percentage of allowable, 1.0%!!! Dead Link Removed
Nitration, same scale, 34.3%. Hmmm.
TBN, or total base number, explained in AgExplorer's post above. According to him, "...Most motor oils will have a TBN in the 5 to 6 range and some synthetics may get as high as 8. I know of one manufacturer that takes their TBN to 12..." Mine is 9.6 at 5,000 miles old!

To quote the lab report, "Results of tests performed indicate:... oil is suitable for continued use / resample at next regular interval". People, this stuff really may last quite awhile. It looks like the worst reading I got was concerning nitration in the oil and even then it's only 1/3 used up. What we do not know at this point is if the nitration degradation is linear. One third used up at 5k miles may not necessarily mean two thirds used up at 10k miles. I can't wait to get the 10k reading during the Moab trip.

Spectrographic Analysis:
As an aside, the only reg flag for my particular vehicle came in here. I show 30 PPM of aluminum in my oil which is highlighted as an elevated amount. Would anyone have any theories on what this may be trying to tell me? Why do I have excessive aluminum floating around in my oil?

Rock 'N Roll! Is this stuff fun to learn, or what?

VERDICT AT 5,000 MILES: if you are using Mobile One, I believe we now have PROOF that you are totally wasting your money doing a 5k oil change.

To define the 5,000 miles-- my driving is a good mix of mostly daily commuting in heavy traffic five days a week at sixty or more miles per day, interspersed with weekend trips of easy highway miles. I believe that unless you are driving an Explorer as a Manhattan cabbie, or using it only to truck cross-country on the interstates with your cruise control button doing most of the work for you, that we can all trust these figures as being relevant to each of our vehicles.

Dead Link Removed
Gerald, see ya off the road!
<{{{><

PS/ oh yeah, the oil does look blacker than non-syn, as has been mentioned in other posts. In the old days I would have thought that was something bad (time to change it!). But this test does seem to prove that the oil is doing its job working and cleaning, while keeping all of its lubricative properties intact.



[This message has been edited by GJarrett (edited 03-29-2000).]

 

[Peter Weber]

Gerald,
thanks for posting the results. Kind of what you and I expected, I think. I predict 10K to still come out good. It'll get interesting at the 15 and even 20K intervals (if your willing to push it that far).
By the way, this would also be a great test with regular oil. Any volunteers?

------------------
Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC

 

[GJarrett]

How about you?

 

[AgExplorer]

Gerald,

The report looked very good. I was surprised to see the TBN as high as it was. Your Explorer is one finely tuned machine. You should probably see the TBN go down to around 5-6 on the next report. If that prediction comes true, you will get at least 15,000 miles out of the Mobil 1. We don't want it to go below 2 because at that point, you will lose your protection against acid formation very quickly. Just something to keep in mind.

As a comparison, the Physical Properties and Oil Degradation are almost exactly what my Explorer using AMSOIL saw at 5000 miles. The big difference came in on the wear metals. The PPM for Iron, Lead and Aluminum were half of what you had. If you are interested, I can probably explain why this is happening based on my comparison of the reports.

The 10,000 mile report will be interesting to see. Call or e-mail me if you would like me to explain the report in detail.

For those who are interested in performing oil analysis, the kits can be purchased from AMSOIL for $19.95. This cost includes a detailed spectrographic analysis and two-way postage. Call 1-800-956-5695 and ask for item# G-1451. Or go to Oil Analysis Kits. Please use customer number 417442. Thank you.

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AgExplorer
95 XLT 4X2 4.0L OHV
AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants & Filters
NGK Platinum Plugs
Jacobs Electronics Wires

[This message has been edited by AgExplorer (edited 03-30-2000).]

 

[Peter Weber]

Gerald
How come I expected that reply from you. Dead Link Removed
Sure, I'll volunteer. Same deal as you offered. My engine, somebody else's nickel for the analysis. Now, after I opened my big trap, I did some thinking (normal for me, shoot off my mouth and then think about it after). What are we trying to prove? The discussion was if oil should be changed at factory recommended intervals or at the often suggested 3K intervals and if synthetic could be left in longer to offset the extra cost.
I'm not going to offer to run dino to double the recommended interval to 10K. I'll send in an oil sample after 3000 miles to see if it's in good enough condition to run to 5k as recommended by the factory. I won't even change the filter.
I'm currently at 11,500. This is in 16 month. The last change (oil an filter by the dealer) was done at 9,800 three weeks ago (I went on an 1100 mile trip 2 weeks ago). As you can see, I'm not putting a lot of miles on my Explorer, but with the Moab trip coming up, I should hit the 3K interval during that trip or shortly after. Then we'll do another analysis at 5K, but I'll change it then regardless. If the 3K test comes out good, it might save the people that change at that mileage a few bucks. The idea isn't that we want to run the same oil until it's completely wasted and loses its qualities to protect the engine.
By the way, there were some messages posted that either stated or implied that the factory recommended oil change interval is 7500 miles. My manual for my 99 says 5000 and for my 97 before that it stated the same.



------------------
Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC