removing front sway bar

[gijoecam]

Torsion bar. I'd personally remove it. Don't confuse body roll with how easily the rig will roll over, sway bars main function is occupant comfort. With sway bars attached it transfers more energy into lifting the tires instead of compressing and stretching springs. Mine are gone and my rig is taller and more top heavy than an explorer and I can take corners much faster than anyone riding with me (Or me) is comfortable with, (60 around a 35MPH rated corner).

An anti-sway bar's purpose is NOT occupant comfort. The anti-sway bar is there to limit roll when cornering. Roll in the body changes the suspension geometry. Take two identical Explorers running around a freeway curve (an on-ramp, for example). The flatter vehicle will generally have more tire contact patch, as well as less weight transfer to the outside wheel. In your average every-day street driving, that probably won't make a difference, but in those emergency lane-change maneuvers, it'll make a HUGE difference in the speed at which you can avoid an obstacle in the roadway.

Please do not delude yourself into believing that the lack of an anti-sway bar is the reason you can corner at excessively high speeds. The fact that you can do that is a function of way more than just whether or not you have an anti-sway bar.

It's plenty streetable without the front sway bar. You just have to adjust the driving style. Yes you will have more body roll, but it's not a sports car anyway. Go into the corners smooth. There isn't that much flex anyway. I could drive my ranger on the mountain highways without swaybars and fly around corners fast enough to bottom out one side, and top out the other side. It was still completely stable. The problem comes (potentially) from an abrupt left to right or vise versa (a fast weight shift).
It will not cause you to snap a torsion bar. Here's the easy thing to do. Leave it connected around town. Offroad, remove one endlink (a 16mm and 15mm socket and 2 minutes). The ride is MUCH smoother. And it will allow the front suspension to work side to side (only around 7"). But it's better than with the swaybar on (almost no side to side movement).

Bottoming/topping out the suspension when cornering isn't something to be proud of; it's just foolish at best. When the suspension travel has reached its limits, the spring rate goes to infinity, and all your suspension tuning goes out the window. The goal is never to run out of suspension travel, because that's where the handling becomes unpredictable, and the responses from the suspension are non-existent.

There's a lot more to tunign the suspension than whether or not it has a sway bar. The suspension was designed, engineered, and tested as a SYSTEM. Sure, a lack of a sway bar changes the suspension response to any given input, but for the most part in you average every-day commuter vehicle, the changes aren't going to be either advantageous, or make the vehicle perform better.

-Joe

 

[HahnsB2]

Please do not delude yourself into believing that the lack of an anti-sway bar is the reason you can corner at excessively high speeds.

When did I claim that the lack of a sway bar lets me corner faster? Read my post again. I'm simply saying it did not negativly effect my cornering ability. It is a FACT that with sway bars hooked up, it takes the energy used to compress and stretch the springs and instead that energy is transfered into lifting weight off of the tires, it's simple physics. I know someone with a ranger that can easily lift the tires with sway bars hooked up yet with them unhooked that energy is transfered into body roll and not lifting tires. The only time I had my B2 on 2 wheels was when it was stock height with the sway bars on, it's now 4 1/2" taller with the sway bars gone and I've done plenty of things that would have previously lifted tires, instead I just get body roll. I drive over 1000 miles a month, never once have I been in a situation (including swerving high speeds) that made me wish my swaybars were on.

 

[calisoundmix]

and that may be possible and fine in a '88 bronco, but the original posters '95 explorer is a different system

 

[HahnsB2]

I'm perfectly capable of reading and am well aware of what vehicle is in discussion right now. The same physical forces apply to any suspension system, an explorer will be less effected than my (taller and shorter) B2 from removal of the sway bar and handle better than my B2.

 

[MustangP51]

I drive over 1000 miles a month, never once have I been in a situation (including swerving high speeds) that made me wish my swaybars were on.

I know nothing about the Bronco II, but they are similar vehicles to Explorers, and in what I would consider to be a swerve at high speeds, would be pushing the vehicle to the end of its handling envelope and in that situation the sway bar would make a world of difference. The sway bar decreases the distance the cg of the vehicle will shift, and it will keep more of the tries surface area on the road, increasing traction, and allow the brakes to stop the vehicle. Not having a portion of a vehicles tested and proven suspension is foolish on anything that is driven at highway speeds.

 

[HahnsB2]

The sway bar decreases the distance the cg of the vehicle will shift

Yes, it decreases body roll as I've stated before

and it will keep more of the tries surface area on the road, increasing traction, and allow the brakes to stop the vehicle.

No, the suspension will conform to the road better during a swerve and cornering without the swaybar limiting the movement. Like I've said before, sway bars on, it decreases the suspension travel and further increases your chances of lifting a tire(s). For lack of a better explanation it's like taking a vehicle with suspension and then taking the suspension away making it completely rigid, the completely rigid suspension will not conform to the road and will place all the lateral energy from cornering into lifting the tires on the inside, of course a suspension with a swaybars is nowhere near rigid but certainly stiffer than without.
I think it's a pretty even trade off.

 

[storlied]

I agree, to a certain extent. Having the front sway removed makes the explorer lean greatly. Too much almost, having only the rear removed only is perfect.

 

[MustangP51]

Yes, it decreases body roll as I've stated before

No, the suspension will conform to the road better during a swerve and cornering without the swaybar limiting the movement. Like I've said before, sway bars on, it decreases the suspension travel and further increases your chances of lifting a tire(s). For lack of a better explanation it's like taking a vehicle with suspension and then taking the suspension away making it completely rigid, the completely rigid suspension will not conform to the road and will place all the lateral energy from cornering into lifting the tires on the inside, of course a suspension with a swaybars is nowhere near rigid but certainly stiffer than without.
I think it's a pretty even trade off.

The weight is still going to be taken off the inside wheel in a turn and possibly even more without a sway bar, sure the tire might be touching the ground but the vehicles weight is still transferred to the outside wheel. When changing the vehicles direction some of the vehicles momentum creates a lateral force on the vehicle since the kinetic energy still wants to go in the original direction. This happens with or without the sway bar, however when there isn't a sway bar not only is this lateral force exerted, but the vehicles center of gravity shifts in the same direction forcing more energy into the vehicles original direction, that takes even more weight off of the inside tire, making it almost useless for providing control or braking. The sway bar does lift the tire a bit however it is far less lift then having a vehicles outside suspension on its bump stops.

Did my best to put that into words

 

[gavin]

a sway bar is basically a solid link between the 2 lower control arms.
when 1 arm "droops" it will pull the other arm down also, increasing stability. And vice-versa, when 1 arm moves up, it essentially pulls the other arm up. Obviously the bushings allow for some differentiation.

I drove ~15 miles without my front sway bar, and let me tell you... never again.

After going over a hump in the road, the truck kept swaying up and down. And this was with new shocks.

 

[storlied]

Yep, exactly.. lol.. "Never Again!"
Haha... well.. I prolly wouldn't mind trying it again... I don't think I'll get too much flex due to my TT and stiffer torsion bars.

 

[gijoecam]

When did I claim that the lack of a sway bar lets me corner faster? Read my post again. I'm simply saying it did not negativly effect my cornering ability. It is a FACT that with sway bars hooked up, it takes the energy used to compress and stretch the springs and instead that energy is transfered into lifting weight off of the tires, it's simple physics.

Nothing about suspension design or dynamic vehicle control is 'simple physics'... There's a reason it takes an advanced degree to design suspensions professionally.

I know someone with a ranger that can easily lift the tires with sway bars hooked up yet with them unhooked that energy is transfered into body roll and not lifting tires. The only time I had my B2 on 2 wheels was when it was stock height with the sway bars on, it's now 4 1/2" taller with the sway bars gone and I've done plenty of things that would have previously lifted tires, instead I just get body roll. I drive over 1000 miles a month, never once have I been in a situation (including swerving high speeds) that made me wish my swaybars were on.

The weight is still going to be taken off the inside wheel in a turn and possibly even more without a sway bar, sure the tire might be touching the ground but the vehicles weight is still transferred to the outside wheel. When changing the vehicles direction some of the vehicles momentum creates a lateral force on the vehicle since the kinetic energy still wants to go in the original direction. This happens with or without the sway bar, however when there isn't a sway bar not only is this lateral force exerted, but the vehicles center of gravity shifts in the same direction forcing more energy into the vehicles original direction, that takes even more weight off of the inside tire, making it almost useless for providing control or braking. The sway bar does lift the tire a bit however it is far less lift then having a vehicles outside suspension on its bump stops.

Did my best to put that into words

Finally!!! Someone else in this thread that understands vehicle dynamics.

As mentioned, and what I ineffectively tried to explain, the weight transfer from inside to outside when cornering will take place regardless of whether or not the sway bar is connected. However, the center of gravity with the sway bar attached will cause the vehicle to roll further, transferring even more more weight to the outside tire than with the sway bar installed. By reducing the amount of weight shifted by the added roll, you reduce the lateral forces on the outside wheel, allowing the vehicle corner faster. It's not-so-simple physics.

If you can take a 35mph bend at 60 without the sway bars, you can likely take it even faster with the sway bars installed. Furthermore, when the outside suspension bottoms-out, and you encounter any road imperfections at all (bump, dip, pot-hole, etc), you're now dealing with a rigid suspension, and you have compromised the vehicle's handling.

I've done some pretty extensive skid-pad testing of race vehicles both with and without sway bars installed. I have a 5th place Formula SAE score as well as plenty of documented skidpad times that proves the vehicle is always faster with sway bars installed.

Disconnecting the sway bar on an off-road vehicle can help its performance under certain operating conditions. However, disconnecting it on a street-driven vehicle is not a good idea. If it really enhanced the performance of the vehicle, it would not be installed on every single vehicle that's rolled off the assembly line in the last 50+ years.

 

[brianjwilson]

Nothing about suspension design or dynamic vehicle control is 'simple physics'... There's a reason it takes an advanced degree to design suspensions professionally.





Finally!!! Someone else in this thread that understands vehicle dynamics.

As mentioned, and what I ineffectively tried to explain, the weight transfer from inside to outside when cornering will take place regardless of whether or not the sway bar is connected. However, the center of gravity with the sway bar attached will cause the vehicle to roll further, transferring even more more weight to the outside tire than with the sway bar installed. By reducing the amount of weight shifted by the added roll, you reduce the lateral forces on the outside wheel, allowing the vehicle corner faster. It's not-so-simple physics.

If you can take a 35mph bend at 60 without the sway bars, you can likely take it even faster with the sway bars installed. Furthermore, when the outside suspension bottoms-out, and you encounter any road imperfections at all (bump, dip, pot-hole, etc), you're now dealing with a rigid suspension, and you have compromised the vehicle's handling.

I've done some pretty extensive skid-pad testing of race vehicles both with and without sway bars installed. I have a 5th place Formula SAE score as well as plenty of documented skidpad times that proves the vehicle is always faster with sway bars installed.

Disconnecting the sway bar on an off-road vehicle can help its performance under certain operating conditions. However, disconnecting it on a street-driven vehicle is not a good idea. If it really enhanced the performance of the vehicle, it would not be installed on every single vehicle that's rolled off the assembly line in the last 50+ years.

No one disagrees with what you are saying.
My comment about being able to fly through the corners with one side bottom out was just for use as an example to say that it is still stable at normal speeds. Less stable than it would be with swaybars, absolutely. It's a given. I'm not racing my truck or chasing track times times or anything like that.
Typically with my sport trac, I run with the front sway bar connected, rear disconnected. I used to run the ranger a lot with no sway bars. Totally safe, just adjusting my driving a bit. I also had HD shocks that helped stability a lot.
When I ran out of town on the highway/freeway frequently, I reconnected the front. But when I'm driving mostly in town it was sometimes nice to smooth out the ride around the driveways, speedbumps, potholes and rough roads.
That's all I'm trying to get across. Some people hate it, and that's fine. I wouldn't let my wife drive either truck with the sway bars off, just because she isn't used to it. I guess I just get bothered when people throw a generalization that it is absolutely unsafe and dangerous to disconnect your sway bars. A lift kit is also less stable and hinders performance on the road, but I don't consider it unsafe or a bad idea in general.
Then again I also fly helicopters and ride motorcycles, and get tired of the "unsafe" generalizations all around. Everything is relative and has variables involved.
To agree further with your point, I have an 03 Jetta GLI VR6 that is lowered 1" with 18" wheels and larger swaybars to improve handling performance. Obviously this stuff helps...

 

[HahnsB2]

No one disagrees with what you are saying.
My comment about being able to fly through the corners with one side bottom out was just for use as an example to say that it is still stable at normal speeds. Less stable than it would be with swaybars, absolutely. It's a given. I'm not racing my truck or chasing track times times or anything like that.
Typically with my sport trac, I run with the front sway bar connected, rear disconnected. I used to run the ranger a lot with no sway bars. Totally safe, just adjusting my driving a bit. I also had HD shocks that helped stability a lot.
When I ran out of town on the highway/freeway frequently, I reconnected the front. But when I'm driving mostly in town it was sometimes nice to smooth out the ride around the driveways, speedbumps, potholes and rough roads.
That's all I'm trying to get across. Some people hate it, and that's fine. I wouldn't let my wife drive either truck with the sway bars off, just because she isn't used to it. I guess I just get bothered when people throw a generalization that it is absolutely unsafe and dangerous to disconnect your sway bars. A lift kit is also less stable and hinders performance on the road, but I don't consider it unsafe or a bad idea in general.
Then again I also fly helicopters and ride motorcycles, and get tired of the "unsafe" generalizations all around. Everything is relative and has variables involved.
To agree further with your point, I have an 03 Jetta GLI VR6 that is lowered 1" with 18" wheels and larger swaybars to improve handling performance. Obviously this stuff helps...

Exactly. Sure my rig will corner better with a sway bar, but do I really need to go faster than 60 around a corner rated for 35? In some situations on some rigs, without sway bars will lift tires easier than with a swaybar, I've done it and know others that have done it. It's the same as people saying lockers have horrible street manners and are dangerous.

 

[MustangP51]

In some situations on some rigs, without sway bars will lift tires easier than with a swaybar, I've done it and know others that have done it.

Why do you think putting some upward pressure on a vehicles tire is worse then having the center of gravity shift and take the weight off of the tire?

 

[gijoecam]

Why do you think putting some upward pressure on a vehicles tire is worse then having the center of gravity shift and take the weight off of the tire?

The same upward pressure that tries to lift the inside tire is also trying to force the outside tire back down. Essentially it transmits additional spring force from the inside wheel to the outside wheel. The forces go both ways, not just from the outside to the inside...

And I think you missed the point made earlier... The weight transfer takes place regardless of whether you have a sway bar or not. More weight transfer takes place because of the additional body roll without the sway bar. Because there is more body roll, there is more weight transfer than with a sway bar.

And yes, more weight transfer is bad. All tractive forces are based on the normal load on the tires. More load only yields more tractive force within certain limits... But that's a whole 'nother discussion...

 

[pocodon]

Just a question to throw out there, doesn't disconnecting front sway bars increase articulation which might dislocate the drive axle.

 

[MustangP51]

Just a question to throw out there, doesn't disconnecting front sway bars increase articulation which might dislocate the drive axle.

No

 

[gavin]

Just a question to throw out there, doesn't disconnecting front sway bars increase articulation which might dislocate the drive axle.

on a solid axle or TTB, yes, the sway bars can hinder suspension travel, but not by much.

enough to dislocate a drive axle? I assume you mean axle shaft, correct? In both TTB and SLA, many things will prevent too much travel to cause that.

 

[joker1457]

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to share my experience.....Anyways I've been running my lifted Explorer (4inch super lift) with no front or rear sway bars for about 2yrs now and I love how it handles, I actually believe it handles better then when I had them connected.

Long story short if you know the vehicle and are comfortable driving it without the sway bars its your choice.

My boring .02 cents for the day :wavey:

 

[JAYBOOGY1717]

perfectly said....i removed both of mine a week ago and man it rides so much better...there is a little more roll but like everbody sais, just slow down on ur turns...to me it doesnt feel unsafe by any means....before when i went over bumbs you could hear everything shake on the inside of the car. now its smooth as hell