4.0+M5R1 to 5.0+M5R2 (RWD) Swap Logistics

[BigBlueBrick]

98 5.0 AWD Auto to 5spd M5R2 and 4406 M​

Hey Guys, I'm planning on pulling the 4R70W and the 4404 AWD case in my 98 and replacing them with an M5R2 (from a 97 or newer F-150) and a 4406 manual shift. I've been collecting info and measurements about the M5R2 and I know this is uncharted territory for an explorer but I'm pretty sure I...

I've been reading that thread over and over for the past year or so to get familiar with that swap so I can do the same thing with minimal dramas. Such a great thread. @Nick26 did an awesome job documenting it and doing the legwork pioneering that swap. A real shame his rig got wrecked in the end though.

 

[donalds]

i have always recommended lasota racing LaSota Racing Technologies because he is excellent at what he does, and have used him in the past

Same here
I would work with him again

 

[97Sandbox]

Thanks for all the detail!

I have read Nick's thread over and over and agree it has a ton of great info -- especially regarding the trans crossmember modification for the M5R2 that I haven't seen documented elsewhere.

I've read your 5L swap for dummies before, but not for a while so I'll do a refresher.

for deleting your auto trans from a factory computer, i would get a sct hand held and ask the tuner to delete it from the computer. i have always recommended lasota racing LaSota Racing Technologies because he is excellent at what he does, and have used him in the past. i would also say wait to see where you go with the truck. a holley system is more towards modified vehicles or wanting to convert from carb to injection. that as well as cost and availability.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into the SCT tuners from LaSota. I had been planning on a Holley system because it would've taken a lot of difficulty out of the LS swap and eventually I'd still like to build my Sport into a real street machine. However, now that my OHV is on the downhill, I'll need a swap sooner rather than later and a stock-ish 5.0 seems like the best direction forward at this time.

i had stock fuel lines and rails on my truck for years with no problems but i would recommend changing the fuel pump if your truck came with a ohv. even when i had a m90 supercharger on it, it was fine (went to bigger injectors for that however and pump). i think you can just buy the pump separate and not have to change over the sending unit. i am trying to remember if that was what i did, or if i changed sending unit and all.

Any specific recommendations for a fuel pump for the 5.0? I was surprised and skeptical to see 4.0 OHV pump part numbers listed for the 5.0, and would just assume replace it with something guaranteed not to give me trouble.

and for what to replace while the motor is out, like you said, gaskets, water pump (and i will also guess you know about the four bolts that like to freeze and snap, that would also be a good time to use stainless if you wanted). i would also look at the oil pump pickup to make sure it is clean and free of junk, and replace the oil pump with a good stock replacement. a high volume oil pump is actually a lot of work to make it fit in a explorer.

Yep, I've read the water pump horror stories (thankfully, living in Wisconsin has led to me getting a lot of practice extracting rusty broken bolts). That's good to know about the oil pump situation -- can you elaborate at all about why a high volume pump is a pain?

And as long as we're on the topic, what are some worthwhile mods you wish you'd done from the beginning? Seems like headers are a common one, and upgraded throttle bodies too. Anything else that's semi-budget-friendly and/or becomes a pain to do once the engine is in?

you shouldnt have to modify your cross member. i had to do mine, but that was because i used a poly mount for a mustang which is taller then a explorer mount.

Really? Just looking online, the M5R2 F150 trans mounts look pretty different from M5R1 Explorer mounts so I expected crossmember mods would be a requirement. Do you know if there are differences between Explorer crossmembers depending on drivetrain? I know the 5R55E and M5OD share the same mount and the 4R70 has a different mount, but I always assumed the crossmembers were the same. If I can reuse my current poly mount and not have to cut/weld my crossmember, that'd be awesome though!

for your rad, i would just use a stock replacement 5L rad and block off the trans cooler lines. i would also reuse your ac condenser and mounting tabs for it. that way you dont have to clip it to the rad (and ask any 5L guy who has changed a rad, they will tell you pretty fast on how much it sucked).
hope this helps.

Sounds good. I hadn't realized the condenser setup was different on 5.0 trucks until Don mentioned it earlier. I may pick one apart next time I'm at the salvage yard just to understand what you're all talking about.

I've been reading that thread over and over for the past year or so to get familiar with that swap so I can do the same thing with minimal dramas. Such a great thread. @Nick26 did an awesome job documenting it and doing the legwork pioneering that swap. A real shame his rig got wrecked in the end though.

Agreed. It makes me glad my Sport is already manual though -- I'd like to keep the existing clutch safety switch and reverse light wiring if I can.

 

[CDW6212R]

The stock Explorer computer is fine for almost all mild 302 swaps, and LaSota is one a few that can work with the SCT flasher to do a good job.

For more serious engine combinations though, upgrading the PCM is a better idea, these early OBDII PCM's aren't the greatest for some higher end combo's. Decipha is a very well known tuner who works with tons of Fords and he suggests the later Ford computers for hotter projects. He would suggest the 2003/04 big Ford(Crown Vic) chassis computers, for any EFI SBF, boost etc, and it runs the 4R70W if needed.

For more advanced swaps, I just found out he has used the later 2013/14 F150 PCM to run the 6R80 six speed in older swaps, and on SBF's too. So the Holley or Pro M is not needed if you are willing to go through the process of wiring up an OEM harness to fit, and using a Quarter Horse to do the tuning and data logging etc. That is going to save me possibly $2000 versus the Holley and Quick Shift 6 controller.

 

[donalds]

The stock Explorer computer is fine for almost all mild 302 swaps, and LaSota is one a few that can work with the SCT flasher to do a good job.

For more serious engine combinations though, upgrading the PCM is a better idea, these early OBDII PCM's aren't the greatest for some higher end combo's. Decipha is a very well known tuner who works with tons of Fords and he suggests the later Ford computers for hotter projects. He would suggest the 2003/04 big Ford(Crown Vic) chassis computers, for any EFI SBF, boost etc, and it runs the 4R70W if needed.

For more advanced swaps, I just found out he has used the later 2013/14 F150 PCM to run the 6R80 six speed in older swaps, and on SBF's too. So the Holley or Pro M is not needed if you are willing to go through the process of wiring up an OEM harness to fit, and using a Quarter Horse to do the tuning and data logging etc. That is going to save me possibly $2000 versus the Holley and Quick Shift 6 controller.

I don't know how the lasota did it but my factory computer thinks it's 2015 expedition
That's how it shows up on all the scanners

 

[CDW6212R]

I just learned that so I' excited to find out if it's as basic as refitting the later wiring to my older vehicle, and then how to do the tuning becomes the issue. The cost alone is big, and the eight coils plus their wires is another cost for any system. So trimming the costs and also using a better computer is big deal. I hope I can begin hunting for those things in late Summer or Fall.

 

[97Sandbox]

The stock Explorer computer is fine for almost all mild 302 swaps, and LaSota is one a few that can work with the SCT flasher to do a good job.

For more serious engine combinations though, upgrading the PCM is a better idea, these early OBDII PCM's aren't the greatest for some higher end combo's. Decipha is a very well known tuner who works with tons of Fords and he suggests the later Ford computers for hotter projects. He would suggest the 2003/04 big Ford(Crown Vic) chassis computers, for any EFI SBF, boost etc, and it runs the 4R70W if needed.

For more advanced swaps, I just found out he has used the later 2013/14 F150 PCM to run the 6R80 six speed in older swaps, and on SBF's too. So the Holley or Pro M is not needed if you are willing to go through the process of wiring up an OEM harness to fit, and using a Quarter Horse to do the tuning and data logging etc. That is going to save me possibly $2000 versus the Holley and Quick Shift 6 controller.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the draw to using newer OEM PCMs? Is it mainly just to run newer automatic transmissions?

Obviously I'm not worried about transmission controls, but I would be interested in setting up this swap with a computer that puts me in a good position for adding boost in the future. I generally like making custom wiring harnesses from OEM ones and I could get an '03 Grand Marquis PCM for $35 from my local salvage yard.

 

[Fix4Dirt]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the draw to using newer OEM PCMs? Is it mainly just to run newer automatic transmissions?

Obviously I'm not worried about transmission controls, but I would be interested in setting up this swap with a computer that puts me in a good position for adding boost in the future. I generally like making custom wiring harnesses from OEM ones and I could get an '03 Grand Marquis PCM for $35 from my local salvage yard.

pretty much. my understanding is newer PCMs factory control different combos, and the new ones usually come factory with different improvements for different vehicles (ie f150 PCM may be tuned for different shifts than an X one) also newer ones i believe at times will have better controls as tech advances. but thats just my understanding

 

[CDW6212R]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the draw to using newer OEM PCMs? Is it mainly just to run newer automatic transmissions?

Obviously I'm not worried about transmission controls, but I would be interested in setting up this swap with a computer that puts me in a good position for adding boost in the future. I generally like making custom wiring harnesses from OEM ones and I could get an '03 Grand Marquis PCM for $35 from my local salvage yard.

The newer computers are faster, yes, that's the biggest gain if there might be a need to run boosted later. The older PCM's are harder to get tuned really well for the complication of boost. I was going to use a late 97 Explorer PCM I bought for my 92 Lincoln, but the expert told me the 03/04 Grand Marquis or CV is just a little easier to work with using the Quarter Horse he prefers. So I have to rewire the whole car anyway, engine harness with PCM harness, so it's minor to alter just the PCM connection to use the 03/04 unit. He said you can do it many ways, but those are the easiest to work with. I've never had any contact or learned anything about the Quarter Horse and software, it's time to now though.

 

[97Sandbox]

The newer computers are faster, yes, that's the biggest gain if there might be a need to run boosted later. The older PCM's are harder to get tuned really well for the complication of boost. I was going to use a late 97 Explorer PCM I bought for my 92 Lincoln, but the expert told me the 03/04 Grand Marquis or CV is just a little easier to work with using the Quarter Horse he prefers. So I have to rewire the whole car anyway, engine harness with PCM harness, so it's minor to alter just the PCM connection to use the 03/04 unit. He said you can do it many ways, but those are the easiest to work with. I've never had any contact or learned anything about the Quarter Horse and software, it's time to now though.

Interesting. Maybe I'll grab an ECU and harness next time I'm at the yard just for safekeeping.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

holley has pros and cons, and right now i have a very sour taste with that system. that and once again if you are looking to do this on the cheep, a holley terminator x is out the window.

if you are leaving the motor stock, i would just use a stock pump. or better yet, if you are buying a donor truck, use its pump. its really all you need. if you are going to start modding it, then start to look for a aftermarket pump. (ive got a 347, 60lb injectors with a eaton m122 supercharger and i am still using a walbro 255 return style pump, but i am sure i am running on the edge with it).

a high volume pump is taller then a stock pump. i cant remember if its by a 1/4 or 1/2. which means you will also have clearance problems with the oil pan. normally you would dimple the pan and call it a day, however the oil pan for our motors is almost touching the rack. the motor i have in my truck right now was in member dono's truck. when he had this motor build, the builder had to notch the block, then machine the oil pump driveshaft to the correct length. you also have to keep in mind you dont want the sump to high or low in the pan because it will effect the suction as well.

when i did my swap, i ordered headers long before i was going to start. that way i was able to put them on the motor, before the motor went into the truck. way easier. i also swapped the explorer cam out for a stock foxbody cam. did it help, not sure. i did water pump, oil pump, timing chain and gears, all new gaskets, i gasket matched the upper intake to the lower intake, then the lower intake to the heads, and also did a clean up of any cast flash on the head ports. thats all i wanted at the time. didnt really think i was going to go much further then that. i think i even posted in my now novel of a thread saying something like i wont ever have a motor that make 400 plus horse power so i will be fine with the exhaust i have.......but here we are......

i could be very wrong about the cross member. i have never looked at a m5r2 close. i am going off what a 4r70 is. if you want a poly mount in that trans then yes, you are hacking up the cross member.

yep. a condenser for both 4L trucks bolt to the truck. the condenser for the 5L clips to the rad. why?
engineers/designers can be dicks. the condenser looks to be the same for both, they also both have the provisions for the mount tabs. you can leave it bolted to the truck, and place the 5L rad in and not know any different. ive had mine out a few times an never even think of it anymore.

 

[97Sandbox]

holley has pros and cons, and right now i have a very sour taste with that system. that and once again if you are looking to do this on the cheep, a holley terminator x is out the window.

if you are leaving the motor stock, i would just use a stock pump. or better yet, if you are buying a donor truck, use its pump. its really all you need. if you are going to start modding it, then start to look for a aftermarket pump. (ive got a 347, 60lb injectors with a eaton m122 supercharger and i am still using a walbro 255 return style pump, but i am sure i am running on the edge with it).

All good points. I'm not sure SBF is really going to support my long-term goals, so I think you're right about keeping things stock and avoiding unnecessary costs in this swap/build for now.

a high volume pump is taller then a stock pump. i cant remember if its by a 1/4 or 1/2. which means you will also have clearance problems with the oil pan. normally you would dimple the pan and call it a day, however the oil pan for our motors is almost touching the rack. the motor i have in my truck right now was in member dono's truck. when he had this motor build, the builder had to notch the block, then machine the oil pump driveshaft to the correct length. you also have to keep in mind you dont want the sump to high or low in the pan because it will effect the suction as well.

Thanks for clarifying! That does sound like a pain and something best left to an expert (which I certainly am not). I'm surprised most of the replacement pumps on RockAuto are high volume and/or pressure -- they certainly don't imply the extra work to install.

when i did my swap, i ordered headers long before i was going to start. that way i was able to put them on the motor, before the motor went into the truck. way easier. i also swapped the explorer cam out for a stock foxbody cam. did it help, not sure. i did water pump, oil pump, timing chain and gears, all new gaskets, i gasket matched the upper intake to the lower intake, then the lower intake to the heads, and also did a clean up of any cast flash on the head ports. thats all i wanted at the time. didnt really think i was going to go much further then that. i think i even posted in my now novel of a thread saying something like i wont ever have a motor that make 400 plus horse power so i will be fine with the exhaust i have.......but here we are......

Yeah, I'm thinking it probably makes sense to go ahead and buy headers early so I have them when I'm ready. I'll have to keep an eye on whether anything comes of the new TMH contact or if I should just order OBXs.

I'd be curious to know if the Foxbody cam gained anything. I was reading this article and was surprised in the first dyno test with a stock Explorer cam, their 302 made 294 hp and 328 lb-ft with basically just porting, bigger valve springs, and headers. Granted it was carbed in their test, so who really knows how representative it is for our application. What I'm getting at is it seems like the Ex cam isn't bad for torque.

Water pump, oil pump, and timing set all sound like smart choices to replace. Is the lower intake aluminum? I'd be interested to try my hand at gasket-match porting, but I'd be a little intimidated to grind on cast iron.

You're talking about your main "Evil" thread, right? I should add that to my list of light reading...

i could be very wrong about the cross member. i have never looked at a m5r2 close. i am going off what a 4r70 is. if you want a poly mount in that trans then yes, you are hacking up the cross member.

Worst case scenario, I modify mine like Nick26 showed. Best case scenario, it all works and I save some effort! I'll sort it out one way or another.

yep. a condenser for both 4L trucks bolt to the truck. the condenser for the 5L clips to the rad. why?
engineers/designers can be dicks. the condenser looks to be the same for both, they also both have the provisions for the mount tabs. you can leave it bolted to the truck, and place the 5L rad in and not know any different. ive had mine out a few times an never even think of it anymore.

Is the condenser really the same for both? Mounting tabs aside, I was reading ahodges swap thread and got to the part where he was struggling with different fittings on AC lines and I think he ended up transplanting the whole setup from a 5.0 Mounty into his Ex. Maybe this was a 96/97 design change issue and if I stick to 2000 vehicles, I'll be okay with my stock condenser.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

yes, i am talking about my thread. the link is in my signature. there is a TON of reading in it, but i have pretty much covered everything i have done to the truck, and links that i did look at for some ideas i stole from others lol.
i had to look at my swap thread to remember what i did. i know you will need the line coming off the compressor because the compressors are in different spots in the motor, and the connector for the pressure switch is in different spots, but i didnt mention about the condenser or the line going to the evaporator so i will have to assume i kept all that from when the truck had its factory 4L SOHC in it.

 

[CDW6212R]

The condensers are the same but the side plastic mounting parts are different, I don't know if they'd swap. But you don't need to swap the condenser at all, keep those mounting brackets on it and see if the V6 radiator will work with the V8(spacing around the shroud and fan, front to back etc). The core thickness may have something to do with it fitting(the later half core is thinner).

Skip any thoughts about any oil pump except stock pressure and volume. Changing to a higher volume unit requires more oil capacity almost every time, meaning a bigger or deeper pan. The goal is to pump more oil up into the engine, for racing, where they typically use a better oil pan. If you try it and it pumps too much oil out of the pan at high rpm, then air starts to get into the oil, and the bearings are hurt. So the high volume pumps are basically for much more serious racing engines. The oil pressure should be data logged to see how it is in all conditions, to be sure the bearings get constant solid oil fed to them.

I also would say get it swapped to just a simple NA engine first, and then see what you want after living with it for a while.

To use the computer from a later Ford, I think it will require a wiring harness from both the PCM, the matching engine/trans, and the Explorer 302 or similar EFI 302. Those will require the two wire type of cam sensor(1999-2001), and a crank sensor like the Explorer has. So the Explorer 302 system already has much of what's needed. The later PCM supports COP ignition, so I'd expect most people to also install those COP's and the needed wiring, and make mounting brackets. That may be about as expensive as the used PCM and wiring, some eBay sources want a lot for the used wiring.

 

[97Sandbox]

Things are finally in motion! Picked up a '99 M5R2 with 82k on it this afternoon:

Now I just need a wrecked '99-01 5.0 Explorer...

 

[97Sandbox]

I may have a lead on a 5.0 donor: another 2000 a couple hours away from me with ~120k on the clock. From what I've been seeing lately, there isn't much out there with less than 100k miles on it (let alone at a fair price) so I'm considering checking the truck out. If it's junk with a savable engine, I've got the engine donor for my Sport. If it's clean and fixable, I've got somewhere to go with my M5R2/4406 setup.

From what the owner has told me, he's getting rid of it because he no longer uses it and it sat for about a year. Now it's periodically smoking in the engine bay and he doesn't want to deal with fixing it. I'll have to really take a look and see if I can pinpoint the source of the smokiness -- oil leak onto exhaust? mouse nest? something worse? who knows...

Any tips/tricks for evaluating a 5.0/4R70/BW4404 truck? I've only owned 4.0, RWD Explorers, so I'm a bit outside my knowledge base. Thanks!

 

[410Fortune]

as you know I am putting together a 306/m5od-r2/4406m sport trac right now
Im using a larger LUK clutch from a 01 F150 4.2
I will let you know if it actually works! the bigger the driven disc the better the clutch grip and the better the pedal feel........

 

[BigBlueBrick]

as you know I am putting together a 306/m5od-r2/4406m sport trac right now
Im using a larger LUK clutch from a 01 F150 4.2
I will let you know if it actually works! the bigger the driven disc the better the clutch grip and the better the pedal feel........

Didn't realize there was a bigger clutch option for these swaps. How neat is that!?

I may have a lead on a 5.0 donor: another 2000 a couple hours away from me with ~120k on the clock. From what I've been seeing lately, there isn't much out there with less than 100k miles on it (let alone at a fair price) so I'm considering checking the truck out. If it's junk with a savable engine, I've got the engine donor for my Sport. If it's clean and fixable, I've got somewhere to go with my M5R2/4406 setup.

From what the owner has told me, he's getting rid of it because he no longer uses it and it sat for about a year. Now it's periodically smoking in the engine bay and he doesn't want to deal with fixing it. I'll have to really take a look and see if I can pinpoint the source of the smokiness -- oil leak onto exhaust? mouse nest? something worse? who knows...

Any tips/tricks for evaluating a 5.0/4R70/BW4404 truck? I've only owned 4.0, RWD Explorers, so I'm a bit outside my knowledge base. Thanks!

Maybe the oil leak is from the PCV hose or fill neck? Not sure because I'm at 250k and have never seen an engine light or a big leak (steering rack aside).

 

[97Sandbox]

Maybe the oil leak is from the PCV hose or fill neck? Not sure because I'm at 250k and have never seen an engine light or a big leak (steering rack aside).

Yeah, the seller said he tried replacing the PCV valve and it didn't fix the smoking. If the PCV was previously bad, I wouldn't be shocked if the hoses are gunked up and maybe just need sprayed out. When the crankcase ventilation gets clogged, the oily combustion gasses have to go somewhere, right? If they're not getting burned in the engine, I could see how smoke might appear elsewhere.

 

[CDW6212R]

Check the PCV grommet and the steel screen below that. It's more common to find that screen full of gunk, and the grommet loose.