Cold air intake advice!!

[FIND]

That's fair. I just try and point these things out because I don't want people to have unrealistic expectations. The main purpose of forums is for people to share knowledge so they can better their vehicles, and hopefully save a buck along the way. The more people know, the better. I wouldn't want to think anyone leaves this forum because they got told something that turned out to be untrue, and then they felt ripped off because they were acting upon the advice of this forum.

Plus, more informed consumers support the part of the aftermarket that actually helps us. I figure it is good for everyone if people can save up their pennies to buy the good stuff. Just saying, the guy who buys an intake tornado because someone recommended it to him will hesitate to buy the next thing people recommend, even if it is something that is actually good.

 

[Mrhobby100]

yeah I guess. If someone on here wanted to buy a electric turbo chrager or a tornado or a stupid throttle body spacer with the ribs in it to smooth out the air those are snake oil bull crap and I would be right there to tell them to not wast a single penny on something like that too.

But cold air intakes do have a somewhat useful purpose. Plus most aggressive driving is done in a engine range that can somewhat be utilized by the intake a little bit.

 

[FIND]

Not really on a stock explorer. Plus, like I said, the afermarket intakes available for an explorer deliver warmer air, which negates the benefit from the smoother intake and larger filter element. At low RPM, there isn't enough restriction in the system to give you FE gains.

Now change cams, and then you've got a reason for an aftermarket intake. Then your engine will actually breath the way a 302 should at high RPMs.

 

[JCase]

So i can basically make my own warm air intake with the adapter, cone filter and the stock intake tube for around 50 dollars or less (dirt cheap).

I could get the MAC intake upgrade for 190 dollars with shipping which i cannot find any information on whatsoever, and that makes me a little sketchy to buy it, if anyone has some the specs feel free to share. also if anyone has one of these on their x let me know how it performs

Lastly i found the K&N 57 series intake for 211 with shipping. I dont have any problem throwing down the extra 20 dollars for the K&N if its worth it. K&N also provides a million mile warranty which neither of the others do.

What do you guys think the best choice is?

If you choose the K&N, do yourself a favor: After you install the aftermarket kit and you do a fresh oil change, take a sample at 2,000-3,000 miles. Then re install your stock paper filter and box and take another sample at the same mileage on the next oil change. Then ask yourself why your oil looks like black crude with the K&N and why its still has an amber tint with the stock paper.

Million Mile Warranty? Bah! You'll be tossing it the trash in two years if you ever go down dirt roads. It will be to nasty to even bother cleaning.

Always loved K&N's "The dirtier it gets, the better it filters" philosophy. Might as well throw it in the mud right out of the box then slap it on the truck and sleep tight knowing you have the best filter money can buy, and with a 25+ year warranty no less!

 

[Mrhobby100]

If you choose the K&N, do yourself a favor: After you install the aftermarket kit and you do a fresh oil change, take a sample at 2,000-3,000 miles. Then re install your stock paper filter and box and take another sample at the same mileage on the next oil change. Then ask yourself why your oil looks like black crude with the K&N and why its still has an amber tint with the stock paper.

Million Mile Warranty? Bah! You'll be tossing it the trash in two years if you ever go down dirt roads. It will be to nasty to even bother cleaning.

Always loved K&N's "The dirtier it gets, the better it filters" philosophy. Might as well throw it in the mud right out of the box then slap it on the truck and sleep tight knowing you have the best filter money can buy, and with a 25+ year warranty no less!

HAHAHA I love it sarcasm at it's finest.

 

[masospaghetti]

As the flow increases through an air filter, pressure drop will also increase. A filter with better flow characteristics will provide less of a pressure drop all the way through the RPM range, obviously with more benefit at high RPM / high airflow conditions.

To say the stock airbox flows enough for the stock engine is oversimplified. Maybe it's not completely choking but the pressure drop could be restricting flow relative to a cone type filter. The cone filter does pull in warm air but also has a much more direct air path than the stock airbox.

I personally have no problems with the K&N filters (as far as filtering ability), but YMMV.

If you choose the K&N, do yourself a favor: After you install the aftermarket kit and you do a fresh oil change, take a sample at 2,000-3,000 miles. Then re install your stock paper filter and box and take another sample at the same mileage on the next oil change. Then ask yourself why your oil looks like black crude with the K&N and why its still has an amber tint with the stock paper.

The placebo effect? Unless this has somehow been documented under controlled conditions.

 

[FIND]

I assure you it is not overly simplified. The stock air box and filter flow quite a bit more air than you would think, and the pressure drop is not that significant. That said, the stock paper filter flows more air than your air box is actually capable of flowing. That's why your filter is 6 times the size of your MAF opening, so there won't be a restriction. Engineers do thin about those kinds of things.

Also, yes, it is well documented that high flow filters allow more crap through. Here for instance, is one such documentation.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/air-filtration-test/

He even makes note of the differences in pressure drop.

And another

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/09/07/how-well-do-k-n-air-filters-work/

a 0.5% difference in power...

The long version

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

Think about this. Car companies are spending TONS of money trying to squeeze out even tiny bits more of fuel economy and power. You don't think an air intake that is cheaper to make than the one that is currently in your car is beyond their reach?

The stock car that shows meaningful gains from an intake kit is rare. Sure, there are tiny gains from going to a cone filter, but, we are talking a couple horsepower, some sound, and a different look under the hood.

Those demonstrators you can find in the parts store would be far more accurate if instead they were trying to suck air through the tube the ball is in, and they were using full-size filters.


Also note: Now you see why we recommend the amsoil foam filter if you've got to have something different. They require more frequent maintenance, but they filter almost as good as paper.

 

[FIND]

More food for thought





Granted, I know they aren't in America, and air works differently there....


"Based on those kind of figures: If you want a faster car, you'd actually be better off to lose some weight, and if you did a poo before you drove your car, that would give you more of a performance gain, than putting on the most expensive pod filter you can buy."

 

[Mrhobby100]

This is getting old FIND is gonna do the same thing he does in most peoples threads tell them it wont work and then argue with everybody about why only he is right.

 

[Flash]

This is getting old FIND is gonna do the same thing he does in most peoples threads tell them it wont work and then argue with everybody about why only he is right.

The thing is though, he is right.

I'm on a BMW forum and some guys there with access to the proper equipment found the the standard paper panel intakes they use flow more air than even a 300 hp M6 can use with no pressure drop. These paper panel intakes are the same size as the Explorer ones.

The 210kw Falcon has a similar size panel and suffers no pressure drop.

K&N is a con. They don't filter as well and they give no extra power because the standard air intake is more than sufficient.

One thing a K&N will do is muck up your MAF with sticky oil.

 

[traveler]

I am not going to argue the differences between paper and cotton filters (Its been discussed at length already lol) but.. I am still concerned that they call the aftermarket cone shaped filters (regardless of what they are made of) "Cold" air intakes. I'll stick to Tbirds for this as that is still my forte. The factory Tbird airbox has a tube running from the fenderwell to the airbox.(As does the Explorer and just about every other car built from the 1990s on) the purpose of this tube is to draw COLD air from outside the engine compartment. When you replace that airbox with a shiny, pretty. colorful, cone shaped filter that sits uncovered in the engine compartment you are NOT getting cold air, you are getting air that has been superheated by an engine running in the neighborhood of 200* F. (give or take 10-15 degrees). I keep reminding people on the Tbird forum of this but there is always some new kid that comes in and wants a new, shiny, colorful "CAI" on his car.

Now, do I have a cone shaped "CAI" on my car? sure. It came straight off of a 2004 Mustang GT and it sits in a black plastic cone shaped container that has a tube running from the fenderwell to the airbox.... to draw in COLD air. I installed the Mustang filter box (and MAF) at the same time I installed the PI heads, cams, and intake manifold, and felt it would benefit from the increased flow the larger cone filter would provide.

As to what kind of filter is in it... LOL I'm not even getting into that discussion..

 

[2000StreetRod]

engine compartment air

I agree with traveler that most CAIs are WAIs (warm air intakes) and I have also tried to point this out. I have datalogged my IAT with a cone filter drawing air from the engine compartment. Even when the ambient air temperature was 70 deg F the IAT was above 150 deg F if the engine was warmed up and the vehicle was stopped. There is an ongoing controversy regarding warm vs cold air for improved fuel economy but there is no doubt that colder intake air increases horsepower/torque. Kenne Belle feels so strongly about pulling air from outside the engine compartment that if you install a typical "CAI" kit it voids the blower warranty. On the other hand, as soon as the vehicle gets up to 25 mph or so the engine compartment temperature drops to about 5 degrees above ambient. So if you have a WAI and want to "race" another vehicle with an actual CAI just start at 25 mph and you won't be at a disadvantage.

As far as air filters in my opinion the Amsoil EAA122 ($38.10 retail) high efficiency, high air flow, high capacity and cleanable drop in air filter is superior to everything else on the market. Unfortunately, because of the popularity of cone filters and people wanting to buy the cheapest product Amsoil has discontinued the EAA122. According to Amsoil last month I purchased the rest of their national inventory (two). They should last me for 10 years. Their replacement is the WIX 46253 ($17.95 retail from Amsoil).

I have two 1 3/4 inch inside diameter tubes (cross sectional area of 4.8 inches) feeding ambient air to my stock air filter enclosure.

I also removed the 1 3/4 inch diameter inlet cone from the stock enclosure.

leaving a 2.6 inch diameter hole (5.3 sq inch). The total inlet area (4.8+5.3=10) exceeds the area of my 90mm MAF sensor (9.86 sq in) but is less than the area of my 4 inch diameter main intake tube (12.56 sq in). I think the flow capability of my intake system when complete (I still have to alter the upper section of the filter enclosure for the 90MM MAF sensor) will exceed the flow capability of my SOHC V6 even if I add a Banshee/M90 supercharger. I also think the stock intake system was adequate for the stock engine except for possibly the cone restrictor.

 

[masospaghetti]

I do realize that K&N filters (and other "high flow" filters) don't filter as well as a paper filter. However to say they will cause your oil to be black as crude in 2500 miles, well I think that is ridiculous. Note that in the test on Bobistheoilguy, the reviewer states

"The K&N doesn’t filter nearly as bad as the horror stories say, and again the Amsoil was a disappointment."

Noting that the Amsoil filter was actually worse than the K&N, and that even the paper filter let through a large number of particulates.

Nobody is saying that the cone filter produces large horsepower gains. K&N even publishes a 2.8 hp gain for their intake system for the Explorer and just the cone filter itself without the intake tube will be less than that. However, not having to keep buying paper filters, along with the slight fuel economy improvement from the WAI effect, and slight power bump, makes it worth it IMO.

Also what everyone's been ignoring (regarding air flow) is that a stock airbox and panel filter force the air to make sharp turns in the intake tubing. Obviously a cone filter allows the air to enter with a far more direct path.

Remember again that the K&N filter and adapter cost less than $40 shipped so its not exactly big bucks here.

 

[JCase]

However to say they will cause your oil to be black as crude in 2500 miles, well I think that is ridiculous.

This is based on my first hand observations and not conjecture. I encourage anyone to do this test and see it for yourself. Won't cost you anything but 5 minutes swapping out intakes.

A good air filter is not just filtering dust. It should filter smoke, smog, ash, chemicals, pollen, oil and everything else we breath going down the road. Everything that passes the filter will end up in your oil through blow-by and the PCV/Vacuum system. Your engine will make 100,000 revolutions just running down the corner store in back. Do the math on how much air that is and understand how even the smallest amount of contaminants in the air can add up quickly.

Yes, the phrase "Cold Air Intake" has become a catch-all term for any none OEM, aftermarket or homemade, intake and is very misleading.

You get better gas mileage from a Warm Air Intake because warm air has less oxygen molecules than cold so naturally the ECM compensates by squirting less fuel. Pretty simple.

The stock airbox is a CAI and is in the best possible position. I've drove through creeks where the water came over the hood and found my air filter dry as a bone! I don't see a cone filter under the hood being able to do that.

On the V6's, the intake is about a straight as your going to get.

An idea I had for straightening the V8's is swapping the battery and airbox around. You would be able to install a much longer and straighter pipe, which would help increase laminar flow, increase velocity to help with getting around the 90 bend, and have a good foot of straight pipe behind the MAM so it can meter accurately. Would also help evening out drivers side weight bias.

Other than that, the only other way I seen straightening it is by installing a SN95 45 angle, removing/relocating the overflow and washing tanks, and installing a straighter pipe that way. But it might be too short and straight for the MAM's good (back wash air when the throttle blade is suddenly closed.)


As far as air filters in my opinion the Amsoil EAA122 ($38.10 retail) high efficiency, high air flow, high capacity and cleanable drop in air filter is superior to everything else on the market.
That's what I use and have found to be true.

And yeah, FIND IS right...

 

[FIND]

OMGWTFBBQSAUCE FIND made a claim, explained the claim, and presented evidence for his claim. This thread is stupid, FIND is just going to argue that he is the only one who is right, and I don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact, and I'm pretty sure I can have an opinion about something that is not subjective, and that anyone who says I'm wrong is the antichrist!

Yes, the test on BITOG does not completely match what I said, but I think it is best to present all evidence, even if it is slightly contrary to the statements I make, since the overwhelming sentiment of that article agrees with what I said. Plus, that test wasn't done under completely controlled conditions, I just meant it to show as a proof of concept. The next articles I posted were on tests that were done under completely controlled conditions. Each filter was subject to equal rates of air flow, with equal rates of dirt to filter, under equal temperature and humidity conditions.

The second test I posted is the one that you should go to if you want factual comparisons under controlled conditions. The first test mostly verifies those results under real world, varying conditions.

The videos I posted are just for funsies.

I generally don't say things unless I am certain I am right, and I never believe I am right unless I have a lot of credible, repeatable testing and evidence. I never EVER take claims at face value. I am sorry that I keep trying to contribute to the community by sharing the knowledge I have gained over the years. In the future, I will make sure to make equal time for people to spread misinformation.

You get better gas mileage from a Warm Air Intake because warm air has less oxygen molecules than cold so naturally the ECM compensates by squirting less fuel. Pretty simple.

Warmer air and less fuel also means you have to open your throttle further, which means less restriction in your induction system, since the throttle plate is the biggest restriction. Just so you know. There are actually a couple other minor things, but that and the one you said are the two biggest contributors to higher fuel economy.

 

[JCase]

Some more good ol' fashion K&N bashing (from a Moderator no less!) can be found here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2040364&page=2

Starting on post 33.



I remember years ago reading an article where Maximum Motorsports said they used a stock airbox and paper panel air filter in there NASA AI #91 race car because they liked the way it filtered air. Even though it's not the exact same design as the Explorers, it goes the show how well OEM preforms if people are winning multiple championships with it.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0410mm_maximum_motorsports_mustang/viewall.html

 

[masospaghetti]

You get better gas mileage from a Warm Air Intake because warm air has less oxygen molecules than cold so naturally the ECM compensates by squirting less fuel. Pretty simple.

That is not why efficiency is better with warmer air. It's because a cold air charge takes some energy during combustion to be heated - energy that could otherwise be used to provide mechanical motion. It's true that warm air has less oxygen which is why, normally, a real cold air intake would increase power. However, having a warm intake charge means less energy is wasted during combustion heating up the air/fuel mixture.

On the V6's, the intake is about a straight as your going to get.

The air still has to make 2 90 degree turns flowing into the airbox, and out of the airbox. The cone filter removes both of these.

 

[JCase]

Warmer air and less fuel also means you have to open your throttle further, which means less restriction in your induction system, since the throttle plate is the biggest restriction.

Good point.

I always wondered if you could increase mpg by fabricating a 2-into-1 flange/adapter to except two different size throttle bodies. One thats 40mm (or smaller) that is used for daily driving mpg under 3,500rpm and the other that is stock size that opens up when you need the power. The 5.0 only needs 65mm to supply the 5.0 at 5,600+ rpms, not putting around town. If you had a smaller throttle body that was always 75% to 100% open when accelerating from a light or keeping constant speed on the highway, it would be much more efficient and I would think it would get much better mpg.

Just an idea.

 

[FIND]

The air still has to make 2 90 degree turns flowing into the airbox, and out of the airbox. The cone filter removes both of these.

Well, why don't you go get some dyno numbers with and without the CAI or cone filter?

Verifiable, repeatable tests are friggen awesome. Plus, it is FAR more reliable than any information you can get from someone who is trying to sell you something. Everyone on the forum would be grateful for the information.

The gains from the straighter intake piping would only show at higher RPMs, since at low RPMs, the velocities are too low to result in a great deal of turbulence.

 

[FIND]

Good point.

I always wondered if you could increase mpg by fabricating a 2-into-1 flange/adapter to except two different size throttle bodies. One thats 40mm (or smaller) that is used for daily driving mpg under 3,500rpm and the other that is stock size that opens up when you need the power. The 5.0 only needs 65mm to supply the 5.0 at 5,600+ rpms, not putting around town. If you had a smaller throttle body that was always 75% to 100% open when accelerating from a light or keeping constant speed on the highway, it would be much more efficient and I would think it would get much better mpg.

Just an idea.

You have one throttle body opened 25% or two throttle bodies half the flow with one opened 50%... There wouldn't be any difference.

What a lot of manufacturers do, is they have two sets of unequal length runners on the intake. At higher RPMs with the throttle open larger, they open the shorter set of runners so the engine can get as much air in as possible. At lower RPMs, these short runners are kept closed so the engine uses only the longer runners to increase intake air velocity. Splitting anything before this point would just complicate the system without really gaining much.