Core Support Replacement = New Cam at Same Time?

[WhiteLimited]

Core Support Replacement = New Cam at Same Time?

So as most of you know, I hit a tree and have to replace my core support. Just clicked in my head! Perfect time to upgrade my Cam! Right? If I have to have the front end off anyways...Makes since to me! So what I have been doing is mocking Eric's 99 Sport with the V8 dropped in it. Very quick truck! I have everything done like his BUT the Cam and the upper intake spacer(don't care about that). So here is the Cam that he used. What do you all think? Should I? I know it would be the cheapest to do it all at one time right?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-35-349-8

Let me know what you all think of this plan, and this Cam...

-Cheers

 

[Turdle]

Id say yes, however,
be prepared, you will be swapping more than just the camshaft. It sounds easy, but in reality I would have new springs, lifters and timing chain go in also.

You may also have issues with the valve cover clearance, if you choose to replace the rocker arms. You may also need longer push rods, and adjusting shims for the rocker pedestals to keep the geometry in line. This is not for proper backlash per se- actually it will keep the rocker tip centered on the valve stem. This angle can change when you change the cam lobe center-and rocker arm height. Remember-the contact of the rocker is actually an arcing motion--so the rocker tip "slide" on the valve stem must be reduced as much as possible. The roller tip on roller rockers helps to minimize this. As the lift increases, so does the "dragging" distance.

If the drag is too excessive, this may cause a rocker to actually force the valve to bend back and forth, very rapidly.

Read this very cool article--

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0604_ford_302_engine_parts_failure/index.html

I only mention this, because I assume you are not going on for valve guide replacement-

Another note, the valves will be traveling further, in old guides. Just a heads up.


It get's very time consuming to do all 16 of them, so please do not rush. If you feel yourself getting impatient, make a note of where you are, and, go do something else for a while.

 

[410Fortune]

and adjusting shims for the rocker pedestals to keep the geometry in line. This is not for proper backlash per se- actually it will keep the rocker tip centered on the valve stem.

say what now? the shims are to center the rocker on the valve tip? I ask because when I did my valvetrain the rockers tips did not center on the valve stem , the shims did nothing for me, it seems I need to pinch the pedastle mounts a bit (the tray so the intake and exhaust rocker stay centered) or tighten them down WAY PAST spec...

I have picked up new pushrods and lifters and I plan to re-visit my valve train soon, its noisy and I suspect the rockers are walking and the rollers are not centered on the valve stem

Please explain, and I read that article.....everyone knows how to do th eold style rockers around here, people think Im nuts when I ask about pushrod guides or how to keep my roller tiped rockers centered on the valve stem.. they say adjust the torque on the studs and adjsut the valve lash, etc etc I am like HELLO HYDRAULIC LIFTERS PEDASTLE MOUNT ROCKERS, still blank stares

 

[Rick]

There is a reason to put shims under the rocker shafts for improved geometry... Just not sure exactly what it is I've read about people doing that on their Mopar engines, but have yet to learn which angles they are correcting for I do know it's separate from the shims that slide on the shaft to correct tip misalignment.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Also,

How many miles on your engine? New cam & worn cam bearings = possible carnage.

 

[Turdle]

Here is an article I used when I built my 400 hp junkyard jewel 318

It is a mopar based article, however, the shims serve the same purpose.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/38620_rocker_arm_upgrade_install/index.html

 

[410Fortune]

yup see confusing as heck

I had shims, they did nothing, so I installed without them LOL
still my rockers walk side to side slightly, I am going to just pinch the trays until they stay centered LOL

my pushrods are not hardened so I dont want to run guides, plus I hear pushrod guides with my heads = custom fab

I installed a E-303 cam at 93K miles with 1.6 roller rockers, Cobra valve covers and new springs. My hands still hurt from doing all 16 springs = PITA!!!

But worth it every time I fire it up! the E cam is not the best choices, but this thing rocks compared to stock.. I know because I knocked the doors off a stock 99 5.0L AWD mounty yesterday trying to get ahead of us on a highway on ramp where the lanes merge... and I am on 33's with 3.73 gears.....bye bye stock guy! my wife said "Hit it!" I was about to let him pass... I love her so much!

 

[Turdle]

 

[WhiteLimited]

Wow, I have to much head trama for this! Ummm, so what your saying is I just can't switch out the Cam and nothing more?

 

[410Fortune]

yes and no LOL

some cams will work with your stock springs and 1.56 ratio rockers, so yes you can go this route, just not many choose too, its cheap enough to do the RIGHT springs at the minimum, I chose to do the roller rockers as well

 

[WhiteLimited]

yes and no LOL

some cams will work with your stock springs and 1.56 ratio rockers, so yes you can go this route, just not many choose too, its cheap enough to do the RIGHT springs at the minimum, I chose to do the roller rockers as well

With this Cam I know you don't have to do any of thows things. BUT how much would Springs coast and how much would Rockers coast?

 

[WhiteLimited]

Hmmm, Interesting...I'm going to have to talk to Alex(guy doing the work) see what he says because he has a 2nd gen that he put a Mustang GT engine in so he knows then very well. Got to love us Explorer guys =-D I will swing buy his shop today and see what he says. The Cam alone is $250, I already have the core support that is getting replaced. I have the time he is charging me too witch is $350 set aside. So if I do just the cam I need $250, But looking at your write up " FMS 1.6 Roller Rockers FMS-M6564B351 $135" & " FMS Valve Springs FMS-M-6513-A50 $43" Bringing it up to $440 rounded up. Thows two things from your right up are the two things 410Fortune is recommending right?

 

[vroomzoomboom]

i want to keep a eye on this thread. some day evil will get a 302, and chances are it wont be stock either!

 

[Dan Whitaker]

You have to replace the lifters if you repalce the cam. The lifters will wear to the lobe of the cam shaft.

With a higher lift and more duration cam you need to replace the valve springs. You will also need a new timing chain set. Thats another $50 ore more.

 

[WhiteLimited]

Those prices are all super low because I spent something like 6-8 months collecting the parts and finding deals on eBay and locally. Also, I don't know if its in the write-up or not, but I didn't replace the push rods because the motor had less than 10k on it when I did the swap.

Thats ok I get discounts all over the town that are 35-50% Thanks to family in the oil company's haha but still now I'm thinking twice about this, **** I don't know...I mean my truck is fast enough as it is haha!

 

[Turdle]

Another camshaft discussion down the drain.

 

[CDW6212R]

Danny, there's some good stuff here, basically a cam swap is not simple.

The rocker arms need to be raised or lowered(shims are the least best way) to center the contact "patch" of the rocker arm tip. The rocker arm does not go directly up and down on the valve tip. As the valve moves, the rocker contacts it nearer to the far side, or the near side, depending on which way the valve is going. The goal is to keep the rocker tip as near to the valve stem center, not running off the edge or almost running off of the edge. The closer to the edge of the valve stem the rocker gets, the more side forces are put into the valve.

Bigger cams add more side to side loads on the valves, plus moving the ideal height of the rockers up.

You can change the cam, without anything else, but should only if the cam is almost the same in size, and the spring mileage is low. That does not apply to any engine I know. The springs should be changed with any cam swap, and the valvetrain geometry checked/verified.

The roller lifters do not need to be replaced, unless the mileage is high, or the cam and rpm's are going way up. Most of these cam swaps in trucks should not need new lifters.

The OEM bolt on rockers are perfectly fine for stock rpm's and without big lift cams. Don't buy roller rockers if they are not needed(higher rpm's and much bigger cam). But the bigger subject is OEM rocker arm bolts, the 5/16" tiny bolts. Those are low strength parts that don't resist movement well(higher rpm's and much bigger cam). Those are a much weaker link than the rockers. If the cam or rpm's are going up much, think harder about having the heads machined for bigger springs and larger screw in studs. A $200 upgrade there would be far better than roller rockers.

You should be looking at at least cam and springs, which for Comp Cams looks to be $375. If it were me I would source another pair of heads to have rebuilt, with screw in studs. You then have to have roller rockers, but that's a better reason to do that. I would not buy an OTS cam, I hope Eric is happy with his, but a custom cam would really work better.

That's a lot more than you planned Danny, so shoot for something less, like a simple 302 HO cam swap. That should do a lot, and not cause any harm to the rocker arm geometry. Try to find a used HO cam for less than $50. Save the $500 or more of all the other stuff for a later upgrade.