Engine tries to explode after M112

[volver]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Found a massive vacuum leak. The crap plastic intake flexed after it was installed. There is about a 1/4 by 5 inch hole now. I couldn't see it last night when I tried to start. have to fill it in with something or brace the top side. That way i can get to a welder to make a proper intake tube.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Flexed were the intake meets the SC, mostly on the back side.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]WOW this is ghetto. Cant wait to replace this tube.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hear are the vacuum lines. The top side of the Bypass Solenoid goes to vacuum side of the intake. The vacuum pulls the bypass open. The bottom side goes to the boost side of the supercharger. That way if you flooring it and make boost when you lift off the throttle the bypass will snap open to relive the boost.[/FONT]

 

[LilRoush]

Couple of suggestions from someone who has done this:

Make your adaptor out of aluminum instead of steel. It will stay flush and seal up better for you. I made mine out of 1/4" 6061. It's more of a box, so the airflow is improved.

And as you are finding out, that PVC inlet tubewon't last more than a few seconds, you'll need to find the Lightning plenum or make an aluminum tube/flange for that as well.

Were are you tapping in to get 'boost' readings? I see how you tapped in the vac lines.

 

[XLRVIII]

I understand that a tune is going to be required. I am looking for a way to tune it without taking the truck to the dyno. Maybe get the dyno to come to me. lol


I cant pay the 100+ dollars its going to cost to haul the truck to the nearest dyno.


I know the ECM will tune the engine to run correctly. That way I could drive somewhere and get a tune. I just need to stop the over revving at start up, get the truck warmed up and in closed loop.

any ideas?

the pcm will not "tune itself"..that is ludicrous

dyno time or some expensive hardware and software will be needed.
either of which will smoke several of those 100.00 bills you dont have

if 100.00 is hindering you at this point, this is gonna be a huge eye opener for you.

p.s. you're pretty famous over on tccoa.com

epic
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=126842

 

[JDraper]

To be honest, I think you need to stop right where you are and do a LOT of research on what you are doing before you destroy something. With what you have posted, and what you have rigged together there, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Turdle]

You need to send me that blower and I'll hook it up right.

There are to many things wrong with this " setup" to even begin a diagnosis.

 

[XLRVIII]

To be honest, I think you need to stop right where you are and do a LOT of research on what you are doing before you destroy something..

draper said it much better than me

 

[BahNz]

I don't think any of you have actually read his post, the PVC tube is temp to get the car to a welder to have the aluminum intake tube put together. The design will work fine, I don't know why everyone flipping ape-**** because of some stacked plates with gaskets bolted down with grade 8 bolts. If you all think a measly 10-12psi is going to separate those plates, you all need to go back to school.

 

[XLRVIII]

I don't think any of you have actually read his post, the PVC tube is temp to get the car to a welder to have the aluminum intake tube put together. The design will work fine, I don't know why everyone flipping ape-**** because of some stacked plates with gaskets bolted down with grade 8 bolts. If you all think a measly 10-12psi is going to separate those plates, you all need to go back to school.

nice first post, damn you been lurking for almost a year?

or is this one of those usernames Jeff uses to kick people in the nuts with?
LMAO

p.s. i didn't say **** about the ****ty stacked plates

and i'll admit to not reading every word he posted the pics themselves speak volumes to me

 

[JDraper]

Please keep it civil. Whether you think this is a good idea or not, name calling, flaming, etc. WILL NOT be tolerated....

 

[XLRVIII]

name calling?

sorry im out..have a good day

 

[LilRoush]

I don't think any of you have actually read his post, the PVC tube is temp to get the car to a welder to have the aluminum intake tube put together. The design will work fine, I don't know why everyone flipping ape-**** because of some stacked plates with gaskets bolted down with grade 8 bolts. If you all think a measly 10-12psi is going to separate those plates, you all need to go back to school.

The idea will work fine, this version will not run as it sits. We're pointing out areas that need to be addressed. When they are, this will be a very unique (and running) set up.


And for whatever its worth, those plates will spread when you apply boost and heat to the mix. Been there, done that.

 

[JDraper]

name calling?

sorry im out..have a good day

There was some earlier that has been deleted...and it was a general warning as I could see this thread going south...

 

[BahNz]

nice first post, damn you been lurking for almost a year?

or is this one of those usernames Jeff uses to kick people in the nuts with?
LMAO

p.s. i didn't say **** about the ****ty stacked plates

and i'll admit to not reading every word he posted the pics themselves speak volumes to me

The engine see's vacuum leaks as the motor being under-load. Once the vacuum leaks are taken care of, the motor will most likley not start. Going from 19 to 39lb injectors and having all the boost blowing out the bypass (like stated in his other post) will be to rich. Fix the vacuum leaks, close the bypass and she might start.

Best of luck.

Edit: Last warning!! keep up the flaming and you'll be taking a vacation!

 

[Dan Whitaker]

No, it's just when I see someone who has no idea what so ever what they are talking about, I feel obligated to jump in. Or is it you're just upset you can't afford a supercharger yourself? Must suck rolling around in your grandma's lincoln =/ I feel your pain.

The engine see's vacuum leaks as the motor being under-load. Once the vacuum leaks are taken care of, the motor will most likley not start. Going from 19 to 39lb injectors and having all the boost blowing out the bypass (like stated in his other post) will be to rich. Fix the vacuum leaks, close the bypass and she might start.

Best of luck.

I believe Mr Draper was talking about your post as some of the ones being deleted for attacking people. Just like the one I quoted.

 

[volver]

I have done done plenty of research. I have considered all the fail points in my design the main fail point is the Grade 8 bolts screwed into the lower aluminum intake. The torque it takes to turn the supercharger is going to be magnified by the lever arm of the plates.(8 inches from the top of the lower intake to the top of the SC pulley) on one side the plates will be crushed and on the other they will be pulled apart. The grade 8 bolts are not going to break. I could hang the whole car from one grade 8 bolt if i wanted. The treads in the intake are about an inch deep. that's a lot of treads. but if the force becomes to large the bolts could rip out the treads. But the force is never going to be that great.

If the SC took 50 ft-lbs of torque to turn (very high estimate, 25% efficiency loss to the SC and that is really large amount) and all that force was applied at the top of the pulley (which its not even close to what would happen in real life) the force could be converted to one liner force pointing to the driver side of the car located at the top of the pulley.

the force would be 227 lbs.

finding the torque at the center of where the adapter meets the lower intake i get 147 ft-lbs

finding liner force at head of bolt. I get 588 lbs divided by 3 bolts is 196 lbs per bolt.( more force to be added later) that is thousands of times under the force it takes to brake a grad 8 bolt. The inch of aluminum threads should hold that much force with no problem. I couldn't find any number for the strength of cast aluminum on the web or in any of my books. To me 196 lbs across an inch of threads does not seem unreasonable.

To be safe i added an outrigger brace on the top section of the plates. It sticks out 6 inches from the side and hovers above the center bolt that attaches the valve cover. I placed an one eye bolt in the indentation of the valve cover, a connection nut and the a bolt on the other side. I expanded the connection between the valve cover and the out rigger. The outrigger sticks out further than the SC rises above the lower intake. Thus lowering the force were the outrigger contacts the valve cover, because it has a longer arm.

This outrigger should take the brunt of the force. So, the chances are the the plates will not get ripped off of the lower intake with out the out rigger are low and with it they will be even stronger..

The next failure point is the gaps between the plates. At first i wanted to make a metal box. The bottom of the box would mount to the lower intake and the top would mount to the SC. 4 upright sides would be welded to the top and bottom plates. This proved impossible because the fuel rail would get in the way. I would have to use 3/16 steel for the sides and that sounded weak.



My next idea was to make a top and bottom plate and then weld tubes to connect the intake runners. This failed because the runners were so close together that you wouldn't be able to weld between them. my next idea was to use a solid block and mechanic holes in it. The estimated cost was over 1000 dollars.



I ended up using the stack of plates made out of steal. It would be lowest cost of any of my options. It only cost me 400 dollars. So with SC and fuel injectors and plates I have spent only 700 dollars. I am trying to keep the build under 1000 dollars including parts and tune. That's why I don't want to tow it to the welder and then tow it again to the dyno.



I did not weld the plates along the seams. The plates do not need the extra strength of the weld. First I sand blasted to make the surface rough, than I used high torque gasket maker between the plates. A thin layer. I aligned the plates and bolted them down with 25 ft-lbs of torque. Enough to get the glue to squirt out of the edges. I waited for it to cure and cut the over flow off. After full dry I tightened the blots down again to 30 ft-lbs.



The glue is not going to blow out with only 5-8 psi of boost and 20 psi of vacuum. The force that comes from the air pressure is perpendicular to the seams of the lower plates. There will be no force trying to separate them.
The maximum separating force will be in the upper portion of the adapter the inside surface area there is 5.5 by 16 inches. If I ran 10 psi, times that area would be 880 lbs of force times top and bottom plates. Total force would be 1760 lbs divided by thirteen 3/8 grad 8 bolts is 135 lbs per bolts. Again very small.
The only area that the pressure acts on when trying to separate the adapter from the lower intake is the area of the intake runners. .82 inch radius intake runners are 2.11 square inches times 8 of them times 10 psi is168 lbs of force divided by 6 bolts is 28 lbs



The maximum force on the bolts that screw into the lower will be less than 224 lbs.

To me it look like every thing will hold together.



The plastic intake is temporary.......................



Does any one have any valuable information I am missing.

 

[volver]

LilRoush you posted while i was typing.

"And for whatever its worth, those plates will spread when you apply boost and heat to the mix. Been there, done that."

can you explain what you have done in the past?

 

[techieman33]

The flash tuner alone is going to put you over your budget before you even get strapped down to a dyno.

 

[coonerboy]

What are you going to use for a hood?

 

[JDraper]

...Does any one have any valuable information I am missing.

Just a couple items. You could have purchased a new intake set up for a supercharger for between $400-$500 instead of making one. It would be properly set up for the motor. You could have then sold your GT-40 intake and come out better off. If I remember correctly, you can get a Weiand intake for a roots style blower.

As for the plastic cobbled up intake. Yes, I see you had it as temporary, but if it had worked off the bat, and you had driven it to the garage where your welder is or to a dyno...what happens if half way there, it develops the split and the motor goes way lean under load? A good chance of doing some serious damage to the motor. Be smart and get a good intake on before you move the truck.

 

[LilRoush]

LilRoush you posted while i was typing.

"And for whatever its worth, those plates will spread when you apply boost and heat to the mix. Been there, done that."

can you explain what you have done in the past?

Sure thing. My first M112 project was for my pushrod V6 - very similar to the 5.0L interms of set up. I actually translated my boxed upper intake for a 5.0L Mustang guy so something similar should work for you as well.

More or less, my set up is a Cobra M112 with the IC lip shaved off the bottom (so it sits flat), then a boxed upper to match it to the stock aluminum lower intake. I made a box that was just high enough to clear the fuel rail, then welded a flat plate top to mate it to the blower. Cobra M112 might help you out a lot when it comes to inlet plenum and keeping it a bit lower for you as well. It feeds from the passanger side instead of over the top like the Lightning blower does. One thing a lot of people told me was I'd have heat issues with no IC. It's not true. We've got over 25 V6 Mustangs running this set up now and none have ever had heat issues. I've pushed mine pretty hard on the road course to find it's limits.

I looked at steel (for cost and ease of welding) when I started. The heat from the blower and motor caused it to shift and created gaps at the mounting points between the stock lower intake and the bottom of the blower. I'll go out on a limb and say that if I got gabs/leaks with only two seams, you'll have a leak at each one of the plates. Going with aluminum worked much better, and have seen 20+ psi without issues. I actually went with two types of alumimum now which has reduced the flex even further. The box is 5052 while the top is 6061. I know a few knock offs of mine who did the whole box out of 6061 without problems at all.

Here are some pics of my car to give you an idea. My Ex is a SOHC 4.0L - and I'm in the process of working up what this application will be.

Bottom of my boxed upper. To make it for a 5.0L, the ports just need to be cut to match the lower intake. The V6 has two runners per cyl (one short, one long) - that is why there are so many holes.

Sitting on the motor. It's a tight fit and it took several tries to make one this snug.

This is a random shot from a car show showing it all together. Normally it's covered by a 2 1/2" cowl hood. You can see I added an extra stock sized idler pulley to the top mounting bolt of the alt to get more belt wrap. B/C I'm only running a 6 rib belt, belt slip without the added idler was HUGE.