My new 347

[Dono]

Heads are in at the machine shop. I'm trying a different one that has better surfacing equipment for mls gaskets. I'm going to try the newish Fel-pro 1133sd mls gaskets.

Interestingly enough, I 'think' 4pointslow was correct on the issue. I really think I needed to re-torque the head studs. Usually when I either tighten or remove the head stud nuts I have to hold the engine stand at the 80ft lbs. When removing them, I didn't have to do this. All the nuts felt about the same torque, but didn't feel as tight as they should be. Re-torquing the head studs means at the very least removing the headers and valve covers. I'm not even sure If I could get this done without removing the motor. I don't want to re-torque. The Mr Gasket ultra seals I used advertise no re-torque required, but I'm going to say after a few heat cycles they need it.
The fel-pro mls also say no re-torque required, and I'm going to believe this more so on a mls gasket.

So, heads are in getting a light resurface, and I have been asked to block sand the deck of the block after taping up the cylinders and valley. The machine shop uses 120 grit, so I'll probably start with that, and then finish off with something like a 220. They say not to use an orbital anything as it can round off edges creating a sealing issue.
I'm sure I can do this cleanly and carefully with painters tape and a vacuum at hand. I really don't need any grit getting anywhere in the motor.

I'm also looking for someone that can spin the motor up on a stand before installing it. This is proving to be a challenge. The best way would be if someone had the equipment to use my fuel injection, but it might end up being a different lower intake with a carb...I'm not sure where this is going to go yet.

 

[gmanpaint]

Do you need to have the 120 scratches on the surface for the gaskets to seal as intended, or that's the minimum depth of scratches needed for a proper seal?

 

[Dono]

Do you need to have the 120 scratches on the surface for the gaskets to seal as intended, or that's the minimum depth of scratches needed for a proper seal?

No clue. I wish I knew exactly what a RA finish of 60 looked like.
I thought it was closer to a mirror finish. I think what the machine shop wants to know also is to be able to see if there are any low spots showing up with the block sanding.

 

[4pointslow]

oil return holes

Make sure you cover the oil return holes too, you don't want any thing getting into the engine. Scary!

I think the MLS gaskets are an amazing design. Years ago when manufacturers started putting aluminum heads on cast iron blocks, blown head gaskets would happen at 50,000 miles. Almost guaranteed.
I used to stay away from engines with aluminum heads just because of that.

My 1998 explorers have MLS gaskets from the factory, my 4 door has 263,000 miles and no head gasket problems. That speaks for the design itself. Just holds tight like it should.
The supercharged truck held up to 14 lbs of boost before the head bolts stretched. New Felpro gaskets and ARP heads studs fixed that and it has held 20 lbs of boost.

With that said, If you are using head bolts, I would switch to ARP head studs if possible. I was able to torque them down to something like 125 ft lbs. No re-torqueing needed. I wonder what ARP head bolts can be torqued to compared to the ARP studs for the 302 block?

 

[Dono]

Thank you for reminding me about the oil return holes. I may have suffered from temporary brain damage and forgotten or not thought about it. Appreciated.

I am using ARP head studs, and was told 80ft lbs is the magic number. Something about with only 10 head bolts there will be warping and it will cause more harm than good by going over 80 ft lbs. Again, I don't have the experience to know if I should be going tighter.

Last time, I used oil to torque the head studs down as I couldn't find my ARP lube. I'll pick more up before the motor goes back together this time.

What are your thoughts on using Permatex Copper spray a gasket to give a light spray in the gasket before installation? The SD gasket apparently already has a finish on it that does not require the copper spray. Some guys say they always use the spray on MLS, no matter what.

 

[4pointslow]

copper spray

What are your thoughts on using Permatex Copper spray a gasket to give a light spray in the gasket before installation? The SD gasket apparently already has a finish on it that does not require the copper spray. Some guys say they always use the spray on MLS, no matter what.

Sorry, I have no experience with the copper spray, never used it.

 

[Dono]

I'm thinking I'll apply it dry, just like Fel-Pro recommends.

 

[CDW6212R]

...
I am using ARP head studs, and was told 80ft lbs is the magic number. ...

Last time, I used oil to torque the head studs down ...

How much oil did you apply to the stud threads when you installed the head gaskets? Surely not enough to get down to the gasket surfaces? It only needs a hair where the nut pulls down.

 

[Dono]

Correct. The washer was lubed with a light coating of oil, and then set in place. Then some oil wiped on the threads at the final torquing area of the threads.

 

[CDW6212R]

That sounds good, other video went through my mind, and oil squirting can etc. I always wanted one of those, but how often could you need it.

I'm waiting for the rain to stop again, I'm down to some fluids and to make an alignment appointment.

BTW, if anyone buys Amsoil products, they have free shipping this week. I've never caught that deal if they did it before, but I need a bunch of Severe Gear for my diff's. It's $12-$14 a quart, so saving shipping will help some.

 

[Dono]

Deck surface is prepped.
I couldn't leave well enough alone, and went up to 400 wet (lubed with penetrating oil). The good news is I couldn't see any low spots and everything looks good.
It took no time at all to tape off the cylinders, (yes, and fill the oil holes (lol)) along with the valley. When pulling the tape off I used my trusty shop vac, the central vac in the garage (don't tell my wife). Im very comfortable that no bits ended up where they shouldn't be. I did have a near miss trying to get a plug out of the oil drain hole though, that sucker started pushing in further.

I'm impressed with this machine shop so far. They encourage me to send them pictures so they can have a look at my work and offer advice quickly. They appear to be busy enough that they are not looking to create work for themselves.

Also, I had never seen an MLS gasket before. I can confirm that it is exactly as they state, Multi Layer Steel. duh.

I checked the rivets holding the layers together, and none will need to be drilled out due to getting in the way of the block and head mating surface. I can see that they are not long enough to travel all the way up the china wall, so a dab of rtv at each china wall corner is an absolute must when installing the heads.

Can you believe it hit 38 degrees Celsius here today? That's 100f
That's f'n hot.

 

[gmanpaint]

100f up there beginning of May? WTH!! Thats crazy! I awoke to my furnace running as it dropped into the 40's last night.

My fingers are crossed, salt over the shoulder, etc.. that this is the last time you have to mess with heads, or anything else with the block. You need some data logging time already!

 

[4pointslow]

Explorer

How is everything going?
Did you get the heads back yet?

 

[Dono]

Heads are back. Mirror finish on them, just like they were new.
I'm struggling with finding someone that can run my motor on a stand.
I may have to pull the lower off and get a shop to drop on a intake and carb to run it.
I'm starting to wonder if its worth it. I'm certain that mls gaskets do not need a re-torque.

 

[4pointslow]

Mls

I have MLS and have not needed to re-torque. I would say it is not worth it to have the engine run in this case. Having an intake and carb put on and run on a stand by someone other than you, I would not trust it. No one will treat your stuff like you would.

Looks like you have done very detailed work and sealed that engine up correctly.
Glad you are making progress on the re-assembly!

 

[CDW6212R]

That all looks great again, I hope it works as it should.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

if your in need of help don, let me know. i can walk away from joes truck for a day and i dont think he would mind

 

[Dono]

if your in need of help don, let me know.

Appreciated. I'm in no huge rush. I'm headed out of town early Sunday morning till Thursday, so I don't see me getting too much done.

Further inspection tonight showed 2 of the head stud washers are cracked. I'll have to pick up a couple of new ones. I hope the sharp washer edge didn't gouge the head surface. Discovering this stopped me from moving forward.

 

[Dono]

Motor is running, I just have not lifted the front diff in to place.

Good news is that there does not appear to be any leaks yet. Bad news is that the alternator isn't doing its thing. I'd rather deal with the alternator issue than a leak.

So, I checked a ford cd Tim gave me, but it only goes up to 99. At least the color of the wires have changed.

There is only one connector, and the charge wire coming off the alternator.

The charging indicator is working on the instrument cluster
When I check the charging wire (black/pink) there is no sign of charging when the motor is running. (Yes, the belt is routed properly and the alternator is spinning. lol).

There looks to be a 30 amp fuse in the battery junction box looking at the ford cd. I will hunt for it in a bit.
I need a break.

 

[Dono]

Well, Fuse 14 is good. Mega fuse is good (of course).

There are only 3 wires in total.
Green/red - 3 prong connector - Small gauge - I'm guessing that's charge indicator.

Yellow- 3 prong connector (Only 2 used, shared with Green/red) Don't know what its for

Black/pink - on its own terminal - I'm guessing that's the charge when when things are working well.

I guess its possible the alternator could be bad. Very strange though.
edit: I'll take the alternator in and have it tested tomorrow. I'm sure the regulator in it is bad. When I pull the alternator charge wire off the alternator with the truck off it has battery voltage, and so does the other heavy gauge wire. That tells me the wiring is good. Whatever, small stuff.

edit: See attached diagram. Very simple. With the alternator removed, I have battery voltage at c114 and c121. I know the instrument cluster line works....If the alternator tests good, I won't know where to look.