SCT tuners

[CDW6212R]

I'll be short tonight. Check out the SBFtech forum, you can learn much more about reality than the stories about cams here or anywhere else. The same goes for exhaust and any real power subject.

Lots of bad information is on forums. Lots of power is lost or wasted or unrealized because people thing that they can pick a cam etc.

The exhaust needs to be bigger, and bigger than anyone here will tell you they have or tried. For the stock 302 a dual 2.5" exhaust would be great, nobody does that. For any true performance increases, stroker, heads etc, 3" duals would be more ideal.

The exhaust of the 95-01 Explorer should be two subjects, the headers, and the rest. Do what you will for headers, nothing is good enough except for stock(TM). The rest is easily opened up to 2.5" or more, and two mufflers will fit. The more internal muffler volume you have, the quieter it should be(pick big mufflers). There isn't much to choose from in the aftermarket, just a couple of tailpipes and cat back systems. You will have to have something better made yourself.

 

[CDW6212R]

Headers used to cost $75, $150 for high dollar Hooker etc. race headers. TM headers are way too expensive, period. If I wanted puny 1.5" header, it would be because I had a puny engine like a motorcycle. No V8 Ford should ever have a 1.5" header on it, except from the factory, period. If you can't make a 1.625" header or larger, do not make one at all.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Headers used to cost $75, $150 for high dollar Hooker etc. race headers. TM headers are way too expensive, period. If I wanted puny 1.5" header, it would be because I had a puny engine like a motorcycle. No V8 Ford should ever have a 1.5" header on it, except from the factory, period. If you can't make a 1.625" header or larger, do not make one at all.

But how many small block ford headers are sold compared to a set for Explorers? Let alone the the Hookers & just about every brand is mass produced.

Where is Hookers support for Explorers & Mountaineers? That's right no where. At least Bob supports us.

Also the TM are coated. A painted header will rust in less than a month. I know. I had a Nova I put brand new Hooker headers on.

Comparing mass produced headers for Mustangs and what have you with the TM's for our Explorer is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[foxy]

Hi guys ,All the talk about headers and such why not have your OE cast manifolds extrude honed in other words ported and flowed that's what I did with mine but I would recommend doing the head ports as well . I found the best result was dumping the 2 cats and the OE box and putting in a full 21/2"high flow system with a single 3" high flow CAT and exhaust . I have just been working with James at Henson and he has been terrific . I have currently 2 tunes apart from stock which are Street and also a Tow . He knows what he is doing and would recommend him to anyone Cheers Foxy

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Hi guys ,All the talk about headers and such why not have your OE cast manifolds extrude honed in other words ported and flowed that's what I did with mine but I would recommend doing the head ports as well . I found the best result was dumping the 2 cats and the OE box and putting in a full 21/2"high flow system with a single 3" high flow CAT and exhaust . I have just been working with James at Henson and he has been terrific . I have currently 2 tunes apart from stock which are Street and also a Tow . He knows what he is doing and would recommend him to anyone Cheers Foxy

There is a big difference in the design of the V6 & V8 exhaust manifolds. This thread is about the V8.

Here is our right side stock manifold. Notice how bad it's pinched just as it comes out of the head. The breaking in two is a common problem as well.

 

[techieman33]

Headers used to cost $75, $150 for high dollar Hooker etc. race headers. TM headers are way too expensive, period. If I wanted puny 1.5" header, it would be because I had a puny engine like a motorcycle. No V8 Ford should ever have a 1.5" header on it, except from the factory, period. If you can't make a 1.625" header or larger, do not make one at all.

Are the headers perfect? Well no, but they're a whole lot better than any other option that we have.

 

[CDW6212R]

I know, they are better than nothing. But the point still stands accurately, for $600-$700 a 1.5" header is not satisfactory. It doesn't matter how pretty it is, the internal size is too restrictive. If it was at least a 1.625" header I would not hesitate to buy them, the high price would be justified.

At 1.5" in size, no price is worth it for me, it is simply too small of a header. I could build a hideously ugly log manifold that would flow better than a 1.5" header, and that would be a better choice, IMO.

Cheers Barry, it's good to hear from you on the board. You caught me in this thread ranting about one of my pet peeves. The 302 Explorer headers are the worst exhaust manifolds ever made, and no aftermarket choice exists which is adequate.

Extrude Honing is now too expensive, it costs about $800 to do an entire intake, about $500 for each piece now.

 

[foxy]

Hi people . I have to say "ouch " with the cost of honing it's pretty costly out here as well but I must admit going by the seat of my pants feel I really didn't feel much difference in power when I did it but she sounded "ballsy" if nothing else . Hi Don .mate looking at those manifolds I can see why you would want to change them or at least alter them somehow talk about a choke .I remember my old 302 wasn't as bad as they are but then there was more room as well .Early morning here in Australia and I believe late arvo there Cheers Foxy

 

[Turdle]

They are not too expensive if they are the only choice you have.

 

[CDW6212R]

I know Jon, it's a delicate subject.

Try to think back a few years ago, before the TM headers. At that time the only choice were FMS headers, you had to select either SS or the ceramic coated. Those were $350 to $450 I believe, and that was also way too high. Now we call those a joke, for costing too much and being poorly made.

This subject or a similar conversation is going to happen again countless times in the future. We may be discussing a $1000 set of headers, or $1500, for another vehicle of course, but the same arguments.

New people do not comprehend what things used to cost. Go back to the early 90's when Mustang headers cost $175 to $300+ depending on finish etc. I cussed those aftermarket companies then for raising the prices of headers. Young Mustang people were too happy to pay $275 for a basic shorty header for their Mustang.

Before then headers could be bought for all common vehicles for under $150, and I'm talking about full length nice long tube headers. That's back before the ceramic coatings, back then you only got paint, or chrome. But the headers themselves were not expensive, and they were properly sized, and they fit generally.

I applaud Bob and TM for filling a small niche for the demand for a better header than the stock junk. He did a great job of making a great stock engine header. What he makes would be perfect for Ford to have provided for the stock 302's. For any upgrade at all for flow capacity of the engine, a bigger headers is needed, badly needed.

There is not space for the ideal header, which is always a long tube with nearly equal runners. That cannot be done, but there is space for adequately sized pipes. Todd built 1.75" headers for his 351W, which has much less room than a 302. Thus it can be done, Bob simply chose to only fill the need for a stock engine header. I don't need a stock engine header, to me that isn't worth the price. I wish you all well, but even more I wish someone had stepped up and made a decent sized header to begin with. A 1.625" header would have filled the needs of more people, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

 

[Turdle]

I know Jon, it's a delicate subject.

Try to think back a few years ago, before the TM headers. At that time the only choice were FMS headers, you had to select either SS or the ceramic coated. Those were $350 to $450 I believe, and that was also way too high. Now we call those a joke, for costing too much and being poorly made.

This subject or a similar conversation is going to happen again countless times in the future. We may be discussing a $1000 set of headers, or $1500, for another vehicle of course, but the same arguments.

New people do not comprehend what things used to cost. Go back to the early 90's when Mustang headers cost $175 to $300+ depending on finish etc. I cussed those aftermarket companies then for raising the prices of headers. Young Mustang people were too happy to pay $275 for a basic shorty header for their Mustang.

Before then headers could be bought for all common vehicles for under $150, and I'm talking about full length nice long tube headers. That's back before the ceramic coatings, back then you only got paint, or chrome. But the headers themselves were not expensive, and they were properly sized, and they fit generally.

I applaud Bob and TM for filling a small niche for the demand for a better header than the stock junk. He did a great job of making a great stock engine header. What he makes would be perfect for Ford to have provided for the stock 302's. For any upgrade at all for flow capacity of the engine, a bigger headers is needed, badly needed.

There is not space for the ideal header, which is always a long tube with nearly equal runners. That cannot be done, but there is space for adequately sized pipes. Todd built 1.75" headers for his 351W, which has much less room than a 302. Thus it can be done, Bob simply chose to only fill the need for a stock engine header. I don't need a stock engine header, to me that isn't worth the price. I wish you all well, but even more I wish someone had stepped up and made a decent sized header to begin with. A 1.625" header would have filled the needs of more people, and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

A 1.625 " header would not meet CARB cetification requirements. we have that hurdle to deal with now also

 

[CDW6212R]

I hate emissions, and we don't have it here yet. Obama is going to spread the misery equally among us all. They are considering adopting the California laws just as they are now, federally. Isn't that nice, that will fix our dependence on foreign oil.

 

[TonysOrangeCapri]

Sorry If I somehow offended anyone on here. I do agree that it is awesome that SOMEONE stepped up and makes a good header for our vehicles. However even with that said, I am a salesman at Keystone Automotive. I sell performance parts all day, every day. It just seems like the TM headers are high priced for what they are. If they were around the 300 dollar mark, I would probably buy some. Thats my view. Im sorry if Im stepping on someone's toes by making that comment. Price/hp increase is what I look at. 700-800 bucks for 15-25 hp is just outragious. I can buy a tuner, and replace the rest of my exhaust system, and a intake spacer for that much money, and get more than 15-25 hp surely.

 

[techieman33]

Sorry If I somehow offended anyone on here. I do agree that it is awesome that SOMEONE stepped up and makes a good header for our vehicles. However even with that said, I am a salesman at Keystone Automotive. I sell performance parts all day, every day. It just seems like the TM headers are high priced for what they are. If they were around the 300 dollar mark, I would probably buy some. Thats my view. Im sorry if Im stepping on someone's toes by making that comment. Price/hp increase is what I look at. 700-800 bucks for 15-25 hp is just outragious. I can buy a tuner, and replace the rest of my exhaust system, and a intake spacer for that much money, and get more than 15-25 hp surely.

it's closer to 25, and those numbers at at the wheels, plus the extra torque ~40 if I remember right. They make a huge difference. And you have to remember that these are not mass produced, he's sold maybe 1200 pairs, and they only get produced around 30 sets at a time. That's where a lot of the cost comes from.

 

[Turdle]

Not to mention he doesn't have his own Ceramic coating facilty, which, by the way, cost over 150.00 per set to do on a shoestring budget. Then there is the polish time.

I have a friend who has over 1400.00 in a set of long tube kook's headers for his GTO. The coating alone was 325 .00, and, even Kook's had to send them out to have that done.

What is the big deal here?
The headers cost less than a set of nice wheels, and certainly have more technolgy in them than a plain ol rolly thing

You guys don;t understand, it takes way more to operate these type of businesses these days, and, the raw material price is staggering.

EPA is all over anyone doing anything with cleaning and coating of metal products. The costs of doing this is very high.

 

[TonysOrangeCapri]

Not to mention he doesn't have his own Ceramic coating facilty, which, by the way, cost over 150.00 per set to do on a shoestring budget. Then there is the polish time.

I have a friend who has over 1400.00 in a set of long tube kook's headers for his GTO. The coating alone was 325 .00, and, even Kook's had to send them out to have that done.

What is the big deal here?
The headers cost less than a set of nice wheels, and certainly have more technolgy in them than a plain ol rolly thing

You guys don;t understand, it takes way more to operate these type of businesses these days, and, the raw material price is staggering.

EPA is all over anyone doing anything with cleaning and coating of metal products. The costs of doing this is very high.

The big deal is purely price with me. I cant justify that much money for that little of HP gain. I can do so much more to my vehicle for that kind of money. Plain and simple. I am the first one to push the American made parts as often as I can. I try to support the small businesses as much as I can. But I just cant justify this one. If my headers crack and create a leak, I will consider it at that time. Not to mention that I purchased this vehicle for 3 grand. Its really hard to justify spending almost a third of the purchase price for a part that I dont HAVE to have. Plain and simple. I do appreciate your input on this. Dont think I dont.