410Custom's builds a 2007 Ranger V8 - custom truck build - Project "Ranger Premier"

[CDW6212R]

I'm sorry to see this problem, but it's good you found it, and it might be an easy fix. I'm headed to bed just now, but let me guess it needs a good bit shorter pushrod. I didn't recall it had the stock rockers, I figured they were adjustable rollers.

Stock rockers have a certain limit of valve lift before the pushrods might touch, different for any engine. What is the cam lift, I'd expect most OEM pedestal rockers would be near their limits in the .550" range? The bigger cam lift is pushing up a lot more than stock(guess at about .450" for most stock cams). So the valve has to go down that much more, ... compare the lift of the truck roller cam to the new cam. I hope you work it out quickly. Night,

edit, I removed the mentioning I had about changing the pushrod length to below the stock length, that was for dealing with adjustable rockers. I'd begin again with the stock length using an adjustable pushrod.

 

[410Fortune]

Camshaft, Xtreme Energy, Hydraulic Roller, Lift 0.512 / 0.512 in, Duration 264 / 270, 114 LSA, 1500 / 5500 RPM, Small Block Ford

 

[Josh P]

Interesting, I was not expecting that to be the source of the noise. Are you able to do a leak down test on each cylinder?

 

[allmyEXes]

So the pushrods are at least .03 too long? Not too long such that a lifter entirely collapsed and bent a push rod? But maybe enough to hold a valve or 8 open a hair allowing oil to suck in on the intake stroke?
I may have missed this part, does the new cam have a little more lift than stock?
Does there appear to be any damage to the rocker arm "pocket" where the pushrod sits?
This whole situation reminds me of a time that I had just installed a good used 318 V-8 in my old '74 Dodge van. It ran great for the first few months, drove thousands of miles. Then on a 600-mile roundtrip to Atlanta, the engine felt like it was running on seven cylinders, but strong.
A few weeks later, I decided to remove the inner engine cover and sit there in the seat and look at the valve train. There was one pushrod wore through a rocker arm. I removed the rocker arm assembly. It is designed like the old Ford 390s where there is a rocker arm shaft with all 8 rocker arms riding on the shaft instead of individual fulcrums.
It turns out that someone before me had been into the engine and the rocker arm shaft was upside down. The oil holes were pointing straight up instead of down. The rocker arms weren't getting properly lubed. I'm surprised that more pushrods were not through the other rocker arms. I swapped out the entire set from a parts engine that I
had. It could have been worse but after the repair, it ran strong again.

 

[Josh P]

So the pushrods are at least .03 too long? Not too long such that a lifter entirely collapsed and bent a push rod? But maybe enough to hold a valve or 8 open a hair allowing oil to suck in on the intake stroke?
I may have missed this part, does the new cam have a little more lift than stock?
Does there appear to be any damage to the rocker arm "pocket" where the pushrod sits?
This whole situation reminds me of a time that I had just installed a good used 318 V-8 in my old '74 Dodge van. It ran great for the first few months, drove thousands of miles. Then on a 600-mile roundtrip to Atlanta, the engine felt like it was running on seven cylinders, but strong.
A few weeks later, I decided to remove the inner engine cover and sit there in the seat and look at the valve train. There was one pushrod wore through a rocker arm. I removed the rocker arm assembly. It is designed like the old Ford 390s where there is a rocker arm shaft with all 8 rocker arms riding on the shaft instead of individual fulcrums.
It turns out that someone before me had been into the engine and the rocker arm shaft was upside down. The oil holes were pointing straight up instead of down. The rocker arms weren't getting properly lubed. I'm surprised that more pushrods were not through the other rocker arms. I swapped out the entire set from a parts engine that I
had. It could have been worse but after the repair, it ran strong again.

The cam specs are posted above, #1302. That's a boost friendly cam. How much valve float could a .03 longer rod create?

 

[allmyEXes]

#1302. My numbers brain wasn't awake yet.

 

[Josh P]

#1302. My numbers brain wasn't awake yet.

For me, over 1300 relies to this thread, I remember a discussion about the cylinder heads and parts used to upgrade them but going back thru everything to try and find it. Not a matter of me being lazy, I miss things and feel it's beneficial for all when I ask a relevant question on something covered that brings the information back to the end of the thread again.

 

[Turdle]

Pedestal shims for geometry?

How would this lead to oil consumption?

Have you seen the filter guts yet?

 

[410Fortune]

Yes I can do leak down test if needed
Oil consumption may or may not be true it is now overfilled by a quart or so

This is a long complicated thread I do not mind going back and finding answers or bringing these items back to the top.

When inspecting the engine carefully my first thoughts were “valvetrain”
This is not just a guess it is from many years of being around these engines
With stethoscope the noise was loudest above cyl 5
Big shock cyl 5 pushrod has the most grind marks all other pushrods also show signs of contact in same spot
Getting ready to pull plugs
Getting ready to drain oil and cut open filter

My new oil filter cutter arrived in 2 days
Should be a valuable tool in the shop

Valves may not be floating, remember it’s running well just noisy
The pre load would be effected by pushrods too long as well as the rocker location and angles on the valve stem not correct, so definitely performance being lost

I have learned that factory stamped rockers are supposed to be a 1.6 ratio but when actually measured they are more like 1.45

 

[Josh P]

Was it stated the valvetrain noise started when the transfer case divorced the extension housing? We are just spit balling ideas about the issue, if more than 1 valve was floating beyond a very tiny amount, you'd know by the way it runs. If you think it may not have an oil consumption problem, then what do you think the blue smoke is from?

 

[410Fortune]

Cold start tune?
Oil getting g past valve seals or seats? Valve not closing fully? Crankcase over full? Not sure yet

Holley remote tuner cleared him
For road trip but apparently it still needs a cold start tune
Learning as we go

 

[410Fortune]

Also I know my other 302s are known to burn about 1/2-1qt between changes… this engine did have 104k on it
My friend Ben pointed this out to me this am, it’s not a new engine and had about 2000 miles on it since build when all hell broke loose

With all the rockers removed I can see the valve stem seals are all still seated. Also excellent time to torque the header bolts!

 

[CDW6212R]

The higher lift camshaft needs a shorter pushrod. The valves are the same length and the rockers don't have an adjustment possible other than to raise them with shims. If the stock geometry was perfect(not expected), then ideally a shorter pushrod might end up being about the difference in cam lift.

The longer pushrods cause the that side of the rocker to go higher and get closer to touching the pushrod. That .512" valve lift isn't too much and should not really cause the pushrods to get that close....

That being said, I'd like to see a rocker installed with the valve open about .256", half of the max distance. The rocker should look even for both ends, the angle from pushrod pocket to valve tip, you want equal angles from that line, to each of the pushrods and valves. I'm guessing the rocker is angled more towards the valve. To make that more even, the rocker would like to be lower or the valve longer. That's all non stock and not really reasonable with the bolt on pedestal rockers.

So start again with pushrods at about the stock length, even for pre-fitting, the stock rods ... Then you can play with the length and watch carefully the pushrod, to see that it's not too close at full lift. Raising the rockers with shims would only help if the valves were long enough to need more pushrod length(but it needs less length). Shims would raise the pushrod end of the rocker higher, which is when the contact is occurring.

I hope this is all that's wrong with it, keep checking everything while you are in there.

edit, I removed the two mentions I had about changing the pushrod lengths a lot more than the stock length, that was for when dealing with adjustable rockers. Sorry, I have installed adjustable rockers many times, but hardly ever just the stock type, just a stock engine(too easy).

 

[Turdle]

So, aren't the cam lobes ground where baseline is lower to achieve lobe height? If so that would require a longer pushrod. Baseline (TDC) height is needed for pushrod length. Cam lift has less to do with this. When lift get you out of geometry you correct it at the rocker arm, to maintain center of valve stem to rocker tip contact

 

[Turdle]

Too low rocker will drag on the top of valve stem, too high might even make it slip off, just right the rocker tip moves it's arc dead center of valve stem.

 

[CDW6212R]

I think any reduced base circle cam is fairly rare. I doubt the mild lift cams have a reduced size, I might be wrong but that doesn't come up often outside of serious high rpm cams.

 

[Turdle]

To get more lobe without removal of baseline, metal would need to be added.

 

[CDW6212R]

Jon brought up the good point, the base circle of the cam, which is when the valves are closed. That diameter is the same for almost all SBF cams, the rare exceptions are called a reduced base circle cam. Those are for very high lift engines, say .750" lift or more. Comp Cams does not change the base circle for regular cams, the lobes are simply made larger, the base is not cut down.

So I was wrong to guess that the pushrod needs to be around .060" less than stock. The lifter is setting at the same stock height as it was on the stock cam, so the pushrod is also running at the same height at the bottom when the valves are closed. The cam is pushing up a lot more, if stock is .452" for example, then the new lift is .512", or .060" more.

The pedestal rockers are fixed height, unlike adjustable rockers which are specifically made to alter the height of the actual rocker. That's how they achieve the proper lifter preload, you adjust the rocker height with the adjustment nut, moving the whole rocker up or down as needed.

These pedestal rockers have to be left as designed, bolted down securely. The geometry is not made to be adjusted hardly at all with them, shims can be used to raise the rocker a little. But that isn't needed often given cams with much more lift than stock.

The rocker needs to be low enough that the lift doesn't push it up so much that the pushrod touches the rocker body at full lift. It's touching in this case given the .030" longer pushrods and near .060" more lift.

So I'd start again with a stock pushrod length, and see how much lifter preload that ends up with. You have had too much contact so far, you need to watch that area carefully as the valves are lifted fully open, and see what gap is there with the shorter pushrod. In the pictures I saw so far, the rockers should be unharmed, the pushrods likely also if needed later for something else. Watch the valve tips too and see how close they come to the rocker. I bet only the pushrod side needs to be worried about. The typical best lifter preload is about .035" or so, some people like a little more, but most amounts don't really get it any quieter. Too little would be bad, a little extra shouldn't hurt anything.

 

[boominXplorer]

I had to run longer push rods on my comp cam in ranger. I fought with mine after the swap, had a bad new ford racing lifter out the box. 6.3 is what I think I used

 

[410Fortune]

@boominXplorer

did you have stock stamped rockers?

Slight delay had to move a boat and a truck yesterday will be back at it today