3800 M90 Build

[rocket 5979]

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/t4758p15-porting-polishing-gen-iii-blower
Scroll down a bit for pictures of the P&P.

Is this the methodology your following?
Was it much effort to split the case to do the P&P?

It is not hard to split the case. There will be 3 primary sections when you look at the parting lines on the front of the blower. One will be the pulley snout housing, the second will be the mid plate that actually holds the front rotor bearings and rotors and the back one will be the whole rear case assembly. Just empty out the old supercharger oil first, take the front bolts out and then tap the snout housing and mid plate assembly off with a mallet. They may be a little stuck together but it won't take any crazy effort to get the apart. Once they start to separate from the rear housing then you can pull them slowly apart by hand taking care not to scratch the rotors or the main rear housing.

A few tips for porting your own blower:

1) Be careful with the rotors and don't knock them around, scratch them, or get porting debris (aka aluminum chips or dust) on them. Remove them and put them in a plastic bag far away from your porting area.
2) DO NOT port on the surface that the rotors sweep past! Even a little bit of "shining" will leave too much room between the rotors and the case and will hurt compressor efficiency.
3) Tape the rear housing bearing near the back of the case REAL well to prevent aluminum shavings from getting in there if you plan to reuse the same pressed in bearings.
4) Do it slowly and don't just start hogging off metal that you may not be sure is a good idea to remove.
5) Clean clean and clean again after all porting is done. Use brake fluid to clean ALL alum shaving out of every little nook and cranny. Make sure you don't get any solvent on your bearings.
6) Relube your bearings with a good quality high temperature bearing grease.
7) Inspect everything with a powerful light VERY CLOSELY before reassembly.
8) Make sure to use a anaerobic sealant to seal the 3 main parts of the case back together while reassembling.

Porting your own blower isn't rocket science, especially if you have detailed pictures to guide you and can pay attention to detail. It will probably take you anywhere from 4-8 hours in total from tear down to reassembly. If you don't already have a die grinder and don't have an air compressor you can buy a decent cheap die grinder from Harbor Freight. Find a few good die grinding burrs. I used the long oval shaped one almost exclusively when I port blowers. Then get some die grinder sanding flap wheels of varying grit to really smooth things out.

 

[phix-]

Thought I would let you know, might want to start a "better brakes fund" while your doing all this fun f.i. I decided to punch it today (on the instacharger) and I couldn't slow my 4 door enough to make a 60 feet merge. I also have ebc slotted and dimpled rotors with ceramic pads. I didn't slam on it, I just tried to slow the truck as much as a could.

Also if you are curious on the why, read: asshat florida drivers, can't drive and speed up when they see a merge signal.

 

[jd4242]

Thought I would let you know, might want to start a "better brakes fund" while your doing all this fun f.i. I decided to punch it today (on the instacharger) and I couldn't slow my 4 door enough to make a 60 feet merge. I also have ebc slotted and dimpled rotors with ceramic pads. I didn't slam on it, I just tried to slow the truck as much as a could.

Also if you are curious on the why, read: asshat florida drivers, can't drive and speed up when they see a merge signal.

I run R1 cross drilled and slotted disc on all four.my breaks work very well

 

[Dono]

Rocket, Thanks for the info, as always. I appreciate the time you spend helping out.
I'll have a closer look at my M90 when it gets a bit warmer in the garage. It's a bit nipply outside right now. Also, I'll order my mount soon so I can look at port matching.

Also, I'm looking forward to the braking issue. Im sure I will be able to get myself in real trouble at the slippery intersections.

 

[jd4242]

Rocket, Thanks for the info, as always. I appreciate the time you spend helping out.
I'll have a closer look at my M90 when it gets a bit warmer in the garage. It's a bit nipply outside right now. Also, I'll order my mount soon so I can look at port matching.

Also, I'm looking forward to the braking issue. Im sure I will be able to get myself in real trouble at the slippery intersections.

Your plate should be dead on as it was done on a CNC machine

 

[Dono]

I don't think anyone has ever questioned RPCasters quality of work. I was just looking at pictures of the mount also.

 

[jd4242]

Well think i have changed my mind about who is doing my port work!! And look what i have found!! IC baby!!
http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/196-Intercooler-Cores.aspx

 

[jd4242]

Whats the ideal lower intake air temp range? And at what temp does it start to pull timing out at?

 

[rocket 5979]

Whats the ideal lower intake air temp range? And at what temp does it start to pull timing out at?

The closer to ambient the better. You would have to look in the IAT Spark table in your factory tune to see how much timing will be pulled at a given load and temp

 

[jd4242]

The closer to ambient the better. You would have to look in the IAT Spark table in your factory tune to see how much timing will be pulled at a given load and temp

Where would i find that?there has to be an ideal range

 

[rocket 5979]

Where would i find that?there has to be an ideal range

There is an ideal range. The closer your post-blower IAT's are to ambient the more ideal the situation. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question?

Do you have access to tuning equipment that will allow you to pull your stock tune from your EEC-IV processor, open it and edit it? Depending on the tuning platform you use the table titles may appear slightly different. Just look in the spark section in either the advance or retard areas for a spark timing able referencing IAT. When you go into this table and take a look around for a while it will start to make more sense.

 

[jd4242]

There is an ideal range. The closer your post-blower IAT's are to ambient the more ideal the situation. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question?

Do you have access to tuning equipment that will allow you to pull your stock tune from your EEC-IV processor, open it and edit it? Depending on the tuning platform you use the table titles may appear slightly different. Just look in the spark section in either the advance or retard areas for a spark timing able referencing IAT. When you go into this table and take a look around for a while it will start to make more sense.

I dont have access to these things,this is why i asked.to say closer to ambient temp the better is a very brode answer.ambient temps should not matter when the numbers are set in stone,meaning the iat at 50* the computer will shut the aic and advance timing till a set temp,ie warm.same should go for 90* or say at 140* there should be a range that its set to work at.say its a 120*+ or the ambient temps from the road are 160* should i be close to that?

 

[Dono]

Isn't Rocket saying that having the air entering the motor at the same temperature the IAT is reading ideal?

Love the intercooler. A 12v pump, radiator, and you are away to the races.

 

[rocket 5979]

I dont have access to these things,this is why i asked.to say closer to ambient temp the better is a very brode answer.ambient temps should not matter when the numbers are set in stone,meaning the iat at 50* the computer will shut the aic and advance timing till a set temp,ie warm.same should go for 90* or say at 140* there should be a range that its set to work at.say its a 120*+ or the ambient temps from the road are 160* should i be close to that?

The way you asked the questions made it sound like there were two separate ones being asked that both related to IAT's.

When speaking of power and what you would like to seek, it is best to try to get lower post-blower IAT's. The lowest temperature that is attainable is ambient; which is usually never achieved unless at cruise. While WOT your IAT's will raise considerably above ambient. You can achieve lower IAT's by a number of ways from running a larger/more efficient intercooler, larger/more efficient heat exchanger, intercooler coolant with better thermal transfer properties, an intercooler system with a larger volume of coolant, having an ice box built into the intercooler system, pulling your intake aircharge from a place outside of the engine bay that gets ambient temp aircharge, etc. You want your AWIC coolant pump to run all the time because the goal here is to have the coolest possible post-blower IAT's at any given time. I know that the Cobra's have something setup differently in their stock tunes but I totally disagree with it. Short of running a full standalone ECM or making your own intercooler pump control system that references temperature range to turn the pump on or off, you are going to have to run your pump as 12v ignition keyed on all the time anyways, which I have always felt is most preferable anyways.

Now onto the IAT spark timing table. There is no set range for all vehicle tunes where they start to pull timing advance due to excessive IAT's. Some engines are less prone to knock and thus can take a higher IAT before knocking, which also means that their IAT Spark table will reflect that by waiting until higher IAT's have been reached before commanding that spark be retarded by a predetermined amount in the tune. I am attaching a picture of my wifes stock GMC Envoy tune IAT Spark Table and also on of the stock IAT Spark table from my G8, obviously not a Ford but it should help illustrate what I am talking about. As you can see, in the Envoy tune there is no area of the IAT Spark table where it advances timing with real cold IAT's; whereas in the G8 table it does. You can also see that where one vehicle starts pulling timing at 104 F temp the other starts pulling timing at 86 F temp. Almost all vehicles are tuned in differing ways from the factory due to many variables with the engine, transmission, drivetrain, and vehicle configuration that come into play affecting how the engine performs and how load is placed upon it. Usually if a vehicle isn't normally a performance vehicle it receives less tweaking from the factory, trucks an SUV's receive even less, and older vehicles like one from the early 90's receive even less than that since EFI tuning was CONSIDERABLY less advanced in the early 90's than where it sits today. I have never looked at a 92 Explorer tune but I would not be surprised if the table looked similar in format to my wifes Envoy tune in that it won't command a spark advance with real cold IAT's but only retard spark starting at a given load vs IAT. When you start tuning your truck, or having it tuned by a competent custom EFI tuner, then you will most likely just start with the stock IAT spark table.

When you have the tune mostly sorted out but want to make sure things are safe when it comes to high IAT's then you would need to do a few things. First you will want to do this on a hotter day. The reason for this is that you will be able to hit a higher IAT and thus be able to recalibrate the tune for it. If you tune your IAT table on a cold day and don't even hit a 150 F IAT (for example) and don't realize that maybe your tune should have pulled more timing then when you run the truck on the street during summer and do hit that higher IAT then you may knock. Log post-blower IAT's via your IATS that should have been relocated after the blower discharge, log incoming load, log actual spark timing, and log knock if you can. Logging knock will depend on whether you or your tuner will have the capability to attach a knock sensor to your engine block and log it in some fashion that correlates to the IAT's, load, and spark. Doing this will allow you to know which exact cell of the IAT Spark table your truck was operating in at any time during the pull and whether the engine was knocking at that time or not. If you don't attach a knock sensor then you can go the low tech way and just listen VERY closely to see if you can hear knock and base your IAT Spark tuning on that.

I had a somewhat hard time understanding what exactly you were asking, even in your latest post, so hopefully this response answers your questions. I went into detail a little more than I normally would have because it sounds like you may be thinking of tackling the tuning of this yourself, or at least have to be much more involved in the tuning process than an owner of a newer vehicle normally would.

 

[jd4242]

Isn't Rocket saying that having the air entering the motor at the same temperature the IAT is reading ideal?

Love the intercooler. A 12v pump, radiator, and you are away to the races.

But thats not ideal,what if the air entering is negtive 30 degrees or 190 degrees,those temps would not be ideal.thats why our motors pull warm air of the exhaust manifold or backs timing out when air gets to hot.there is an ideal temp motors like to run at.just like the ideal engine water temp is around 180-210*.i have the ability to adjust my lower intake temps no matter what ambient temps are.i understand it depends on tune and all that crap but asking what is the ideal for a complete stock motor before the computer starts to adjust timing either way.ive read many peoples intake temps for boosted is around 130-150 for non intercooled.i have all the other stuff for the intercooler so i dont think ill do water meth at this point.may go with a small nos shot as i uave must of the parts for nos also.

 

[rocket 5979]

Isn't Rocket saying that having the air entering the motor at the same temperature the IAT is reading ideal?

Love the intercooler. A 12v pump, radiator, and you are away to the races.

Yes, the Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IATS) will need to be relocated post-blower and post-intercooler so that it can take an accurate reading of the actual temperature of the aircharge going into the engine after being compressed and heated by the supercharger. If it is not relocated then your IATS will read a much lower temperature than the actual temp making it into the engine. It will be referencing an entirely wrong cell in the IAT Spark table that will almost be guaranteed to not be pulling enough spark and knock will likely occur which will kill the engine pretty quickly.

 

[jd4242]

The way you asked the questions made it sound like there were two separate ones being asked that both related to IAT's.

When speaking of power and what you would like to seek, it is best to try to get lower post-blower IAT's. The lowest temperature that is attainable is ambient; which is usually never achieved unless at cruise. While WOT your IAT's will raise considerably above ambient. You can achieve lower IAT's by a number of ways from running a larger/more efficient intercooler, larger/more efficient heat exchanger, intercooler coolant with better thermal transfer properties, an intercooler system with a larger volume of coolant, having an ice box built into the intercooler system, pulling your intake aircharge from a place outside of the engine bay that gets ambient temp aircharge, etc. You want your AWIC coolant pump to run all the time because the goal here is to have the coolest possible post-blower IAT's at any given time. I know that the Cobra's have something setup differently in their stock tunes but I totally disagree with it. Short of running a full standalone ECM or making your own intercooler pump control system that references temperature range to turn the pump on or off, you are going to have to run your pump as 12v ignition keyed on all the time anyways, which I have always felt is most preferable anyways.

Now onto the IAT spark timing table. There is no set range for all vehicle tunes where they start to pull timing advance due to excessive IAT's. Some engines are less prone to knock and thus can take a higher IAT before knocking, which also means that their IAT Spark table will reflect that by waiting until higher IAT's have been reached before commanding that spark be retarded by a predetermined amount in the tune. I am attaching a picture of my wifes stock GMC Envoy tune IAT Spark Table and also on of the stock IAT Spark table from my G8, obviously not a Ford but it should help illustrate what I am talking about. As you can see, in the Envoy tune there is no area of the IAT Spark table where it advances timing with real cold IAT's; whereas in the G8 table it does. You can also see that where one vehicle starts pulling timing at 104 F temp the other starts pulling timing at 86 F temp. Almost all vehicles are tuned in differing ways from the factory due to many variables with the engine, transmission, drivetrain, and vehicle configuration that come into play affecting how the engine performs and how load is placed upon it. Usually if a vehicle isn't normally a performance vehicle it receives less tweaking from the factory, trucks an SUV's receive even less, and older vehicles like one from the early 90's receive even less than that since EFI tuning was CONSIDERABLY less advanced in the early 90's than where it sits today. I have never looked at a 92 Explorer tune but I would not be surprised if the table looked similar in format to my wifes Envoy tune in that it won't command a spark advance with real cold IAT's but only retard spark starting at a given load vs IAT. When you start tuning your truck, or having it tuned by a competent custom EFI tuner, then you will most likely just start with the stock IAT spark table.

When you have the tune mostly sorted out but want to make sure things are safe when it comes to high IAT's then you would need to do a few things. First you will want to do this on a hotter day. The reason for this is that you will be able to hit a higher IAT and thus be able to recalibrate the tune for it. If you tune your IAT table on a cold day and don't even hit a 150 F IAT (for example) and don't realize that maybe your tune should have pulled more timing then when you run the truck on the street during summer and do hit that higher IAT then you may knock. Log post-blower IAT's via your IATS that should have been relocated after the blower discharge, log incoming load, log actual spark timing, and log knock if you can. Logging knock will depend on whether you or your tuner will have the capability to attach a knock sensor to your engine block and log it in some fashion that correlates to the IAT's, load, and spark. Doing this will allow you to know which exact cell of the IAT Spark table your truck was operating in at any time during the pull and whether the engine was knocking at that time or not. If you don't attach a knock sensor then you can go the low tech way and just listen VERY closely to see if you can hear knock and base your IAT Spark tuning on that.

I had a somewhat hard time understanding what exactly you were asking, even in your latest post, so hopefully this response answers your questions. I went into detail a little more than I normally would have because it sounds like you may be thinking of tackling the tuning of this yourself, or at least have to be much more involved in the tuning process than an owner of a newer vehicle normally would.

Ok let me just put it this way,what are your average iat on your boosted cars?

 

[jd4242]

Yes, the Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IATS) will need to be relocated post-blower and post-intercooler so that it can take an accurate reading of the actual temperature of the aircharge going into the engine after being compressed and heated by the supercharger. If it is not relocated then your IATS will read a much lower temperature than the actual temp making it into the engine. It will be referencing an entirely wrong cell in the IAT Spark table that will almost be guaranteed to not be pulling enough spark and knock will likely occur which will kill the engine pretty quickly.

Ive moved mine into the lower mount,its after the charger and intercooler now

 

[rocket 5979]

Ok let me just put it this way,what are your average iat on your boosted cars?

That is what I have been trying to tell you.... THERE IS NOT ONE! It totally depends on the type of forced induction because some types generate higher IAT's while others don't. It also depends on where at in the efficiency range of that particular blower you are operating at which affects the adiabatic efficiency. It also depends on how efficient your intercooler system is at reducing your IAT's after the aircharge has been compressed, where your intake pulls the aircharge from (inside of out of the engine bay). And also the ambient temperature will affect this too. If my blower heats my aircharge about 100 degrees while compressing it and I am in Alaska when it is 0 degrees F out then my post-blower IAT's will be much lower than if I was in Death Valley where ambient temps are 120 degrees F. One location would result in having a 100 F IAT where the other would result in a 220 F IAT. All of these are factors that play into determining a given FI combinations average IAT. This is why you need to datalog your IAT's and the other things I previously mentioned when you are recalibrating the IAT Spark table to allow maximum power while still remaining safe.

Also there is no "ideal engine water temp" for all engines either. Some engine like allot hotter ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) while others like allot cooler of one. Some cars run better with a 150 degree thermostat in while others like a 220 degree one and make more power because of it. If you want to speak in a VERY broad range then yes, somewhere in the 175 F range is the average ECT that most engines want to run at. While BSing about ECT's and IAT's in person or on a forum just talking about a general temperature range in which engines operate it is ok to be so general, but when custom tuning the combo while referencing these after installing the blower you will need to log ACTUAL, not just guess. This is where having an idea of a "general range" or "ideal range" as you seem stuck on putting it is purely insufficient. If you want to do it right and have your engine be tuned to the maximum threshold for safety and also power then you will need to datalog what I suggested be datalogged and go through the process.

I have tried to outline how this stuff works in about 3 different fashions in my last few posts but I seem to be hitting a brick wall when talking to you. I have been in this game designing and building forced induction systems for over 10 years now and have been custom tuning them for about 6 so rather than telling me "that's not ideal" or "thats a very broad answer" how about you just listen to the guy who has been doing this stuff for more than a decade who is trying to help you. I sure don't know everything there is to know about forced induction but I have probably forgotten more than most would know in a lifetime. The reason my answers are very broad is because the reality of it is very broad and so are the "ideal ranges" too. The ball is in your court JD.

 

[Dono]

Rocket, we appreciate you sticking with us. Each post helps ALOT in understnding what the heck goes on.
You are kind of taking on a teaching roll, and there are a lot of concepts to wrap our heads around.

Just the simple statement of moving the IATS sensor for a true reading, and why is invaluable info. Love it.