3800 M90 Build

Ok the cats out the bag!!im going supercharged .its a 3800 gm m90.i need lots of help as im a nos guy.for starters my list of mods is in my signature.the guy im buying it from ran it on a stock tuned motor at 3psi.first question is what is the "safe" limit to run boost at?i know it is not ideal but i have a wide band O2 and will be doing tuning very soon.i also will be trying to have my company make a new lower intake mounting bracket on the cnc machine and have it taped for nos/water meth injectors/spray bars.i will also be getting a p+p unit from 3800 performance and stepping down on the pulley to try and run 8-10psi.what size injectors should i run for that?which fuel pump should i run?any suggestions on tuning?i was going to go mega squirt but i see sct has a new chip out,any suggestions?


DONE
ported and polished gm 3800 gen 2 m90
Water to air intercooled
port matched 76mm inlet and intake tube
mustang 75mm race tb
90mm maf
36lb injectors
255 fuel pump
sct 5bank dyno tuned
2.7" pulley 10lbs of boost!!

dyno run,these was the last two pulls with the 2.7 and the alternator was bad.turn your volume down!!


and a 3.25 pull and think my rev is still set to 5000 in this one

 

[jd4242]

Its been 2 weeks. We had better be seeing dyno numbers by now.

j/k.

Yep got them,little sad tho,figured i would put out more than 310!!





Hahah jk!!have been doing alot tho,the hold up is going to be waiting on the charger to get back

 

[jd4242]

well been getting some work done this weekend,not as much as i like to have.these damn motor mounts have been a PIA!!! finally they are done and i can move on.so this weekend i got the motor and trans mounts done,new injectors in,new fan trimmed and test fitted.i also redid my trans coolers,i was using my ac condenser as a trans cooler but i think the lines in it was to small and restricting my flow.so i went back to just using a aftermarket cooler and the stock front one.i had to weld some straps to mount the trans cooler to and one in the front to mount my IC HE to.got the HE mounted and fits nice.im really happy how everything came out,the mounts worked very good and look like they will be plenty strong and everything fit nice in the front.there is room between each cooler and plenty of room for air flow.the fan fit nice too even tho i did trim it one inch it probably didnt need to be.when i test fit it i didnt pay attention to where it was going to mount,just slide it up and down to see if it cleared,where it mounts the fan motor is above the water pump so it looks like it wouldnt have even hit so.trimmed my gauge pod too and looks like its going to work fine also.now with the mounts done im going to pull my headers off and repaint them and touch up the heads.then im going to pull my valve covers to do my new rockers and spacers,also going to touch up the paint on the covers.after that all i got is wiring all the gauges till i get the charger back..ok on to some pics
injectors and ported fuel rail

motor and trans mounts

fan(tbird sc)

trans cooler mounts,thats a oil cooler behind the stock front trans cooler

HE mount

and gauge pod(tach,fuel psi and dual intercooler temps(pre cooler and after))

 

[jd4242]

also got my piping in.i stepped up to 3.25 to get a matched 75mm id through everything,its also thick walled.i didnt think it would be much bigger as its only .25 bigger but man it is.the old 3"pipe fits inside the new pipe;0
new on the right

new on bottom

old3"inside the new 3.25

also found out the old owner cut the top tab off the inlet mount tab,i dont know why and he says he didnt do it but it was done.my port guy said it shouldnt be a problem
stock inlet

mine

 

[Dono]

Lots of radiators behind it that grill. The new electric fan is perfect. Your well no your way. The support components take a huge chunk of thought and time.

 

[jd4242]

Lots of radiators behind it that grill. The new electric fan is perfect. Your well no your way. The support components take a huge chunk of thought and time.

haha a radiator,two tranny coolers,oil cooler and a IC heat exchanger!!they all fit so nicely to though,everything i did this weekend just went together like it was meant to be there.KIND OF SCAREY yea if this fan does what its said to do(more CFM than a Taurus fan) then there should be NO problems with anything staying cool.its the wiring that im not looking forward to and thats what i went to school for lol i got 9 gauges,a IC pump,a fan and rev limiter/fuel pump cut off to all wire upim putting in another fuse box that is going to be ran off a switched 50 amp relay and breaker.its only going to be hot when the truck is on,all my gauges and pump will be ran out of that fuse box.i think im going to need a BIGGER alternator and i have a 220 now.now i have all these new tools to support any fab work im finding my self making all kinds of crap.ive welded so much crap with my new mig its not even funny.i cant wait till my tig is up and runningthe things,price and pain we go through for FUN:smoke:


ps:and i managed to do a rearend swap in my cousin 97 mustang,ALL IN ONE WEEKEND

 

[Dono]

So, your using a 50 amp relay, or an SCR??
A SCR would be cool. I love the idea.

 

[jd4242]

Well im using my old setup for my fan.its a 50 amp breaker to a switched power relay.im eliminating the temp probe and wiring that to a switch power(key on) then to a new fuse box.so the new fuse box will be hot only when the truck is on and has a max of 50 amp,think the box im going to use has 10 slots.just wanna use what i uave all ready.the new fan needs a 70 amp relay so all the old stuff is no good but allready in truck so might as well use it

 

[wood1]

So how did the dyno run go?

Looks like you have been very busy!

 

[Dono]

Its going to be a nice clean professional install. i guess that's the key to avoiding strange issues down the road.

 

[jd4242]

So how did the dyno run go?

Looks like you have been very busy!

We was just joking about doing a dyno run.i dont even have the charger from the port guy yet.had to hold on to it to test fit because i raised my motor one inch to clear the new oil pan and i just finshed the mounts last weekend,so should go this week.be atleast three weeks till i get it back,maybe more with shipping.but im only really shotting for 250ish with 4-5lbs of boost before i tune.after tune and new pullies(8-10psi) im hoping for around 300 hp safe but thats not really where the power is,its going to be the torq,should be well above 400lbs.i should be around 200hp and 300lbs of torq now before charger(AROUND)

 

[jd4242]

Its going to be a nice clean professional install. i guess that's the key to avoiding strange issues down the road.

Im trying to do as clean and professional as i can.if i got to wait alittle to afford better or more parts i would rather do it now.biggest thing i want is to be able to run it safe at low levels now and once tuned be able to switch back and forth on the pullies from low boost and high boost safe.so really all i will need is just a tune,no other parts or upgrades.wayyy wayy down the road, ive been talking to my motor man about boring out and using forged 302 piston and rods(wayyyyyy cheaper than 4.0) and copper gaskets and head studs then running 10psi as a DD and turn it up to 15-20psi for offroading!!thats when the fun really would start,i would probably pull the motor and put it in a ranger for show and drop a stock 5.0 in the truck that i can just dog offroad!

 

[rocket 5979]

running 10psi as a DD and turn it up to 15-20psi for offroading!!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you will be outside the efficiency range of that blower at 15 psi. These blowers like to be used in the 6-7 psi boost range which is a 1.40-1.47 Pressure Ratio (PR). Take a look at the attached compressor map for a 5th Gen Eaton blower. Those islands that look like a mountain on a topographical map are efficiency islands. You always want to "stay on top of the mountain" as long as possible. If you fall off the mountain too far then adiabatic efficiency will suffer greatly, power will suffer, and safety too because you are pumping on heck of allot more heat into your engine which may heatsoak your AWIC and cause IAT's to skyrocket.

The pressure ratio (PR) if you ran 15psi boost would be 2.02 and your overall flow in M^3/hr would be about 1,200 if you revved to 5,500 RPM's. You would literally top out in the 56% efficiency zone and stay there until about 4,000 RPM's where you would fall off into 54% and then progress until you are entirely off of the map altogether about 500rpms before redline. The blower would also be spinning at about 14,500 RPM's too. At 20 psi you would never even start on the map being that you would be at a PR of 2.36. If you want to run that much boost then you would have to step up to a bigger blower or have one heck of allot larger AWIC system to fight IAT's. I would run the M90 to about a maximum of 11 psi on your 4.0 V6 engine. You can get away with higher boost pressures on smaller displacement engines but once you spin that blower so fast then you will be getting allot more heat and not much more gain. Porting the blower does help offset this but there is only so much a port can do.

At the 15-20psi boost level you would be better served by stepping up to an M112 blower from a 03-04 Cobra. The Cobra's do tend to run in the 2.02 pressure ratio range too once they have been pullied and done a few bolton mods but their AWIC systems are also much more efficient to fight to keep IAT's down as well. Stock they run 8psi boost which is a 1.54 PR.

 

[jd4242]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you will be outside the efficiency range of that blower at 15 psi. These blowers like to be used in the 6-7 psi boost range which is a 1.40-1.47 Pressure Ratio (PR). Take a look at the attached compressor map for a 5th Gen Eaton blower. Those islands that look like a mountain on a topographical map are efficiency islands. You always want to "stay on top of the mountain" as long as possible. If you fall off the mountain too far then adiabatic efficiency will suffer greatly, power will suffer, and safety too because you are pumping on heck of allot more heat into your engine which may heatsoak your AWIC and cause IAT's to skyrocket.

The pressure ratio (PR) if you ran 15psi boost would be 2.02 and your overall flow in M^3/hr would be about 1,200 if you revved to 5,500 RPM's. You would literally top out in the 56% efficiency zone and stay there until about 4,000 RPM's where you would fall off into 54% and then progress until you are entirely off of the map altogether about 500rpms before redline. The blower would also be spinning at about 14,500 RPM's too. At 20 psi you would never even start on the map being that you would be at a PR of 2.36. If you want to run that much boost then you would have to step up to a bigger blower. I would run the M90 to about a maximum of 11 psi on your 4.0 V6 engine. You can get away with higher boost pressures on smaller displacement engines but once you spin that blower so fast then you will be getting allot more heat and not much more gain. Porting the blower does help offset this but there is only so much a port can do.

At the 15-20psi boost level you would be better served by stepping up to an M112 blower from a 03-04 Cobra. The Cobra's do tend to run in the 2.02 pressure ratio range too once they have been pullied and done a few bolton mods but their AWIC systems are also much more efficient to fight to keep IAT's down as well. Stock they run 8psi boost which is a 1.54 PR.

For starters this is all just a dream to be above 10.but huh stock on a 3800 is about 6-8psi on a 3.8 pulley(they have a larger crank) i see people running 12-15 all day on the 3800s and have heard on them running upwards of 20-25 on there race blocks and they have higher rpms and pullies sizes go all the way down to 2.2(im only running a 3.2).i would agree tho if i was to even want to run 15-20 psi a m112 would be on order but i would think as an offroad,quick runs that 15-20psi on a ported IC m90 would be fine,not efficient but wouldnt be hurting anything(again just dreaming)

 

[rocket 5979]

For starters this is all just a dream to be above 10.but huh stock on a 3800 is about 6-8psi on a 3.8 pulley(they have a larger crank) i see people running 12-15 all day on the 3800s and have heard on them running upwards of 20-25 on there race blocks and they have higher rpms and pullies sizes go all the way down to 2.2(im only running a 3.2).i would agree tho if i was to even want to run 15-20 psi a m112 would be on order but i would think as an offroad,quick runs that 15-20psi on a ported IC m90 would be fine,not efficient but wouldnt be hurting anything(again just dreaming)

They also have smaller displacement engines which means more boost can be ran at a given airflow and much more efficient intercooler systems to reduce IAT's too. As with anything, the harder you push it the closer you get to a point of diminishing returns. I think you will pass that point once you get around and go past 15 psi given your particular combo. Your ZZP AWIC system may reduce IAT's but at the end of the day it is not that thick and will heatsoak very quickly. Just keep in mind that you may make more power on less boost once you go that far off of the efficiency map. Thank god you plan to run W/M because that will help keep things under control quite a bit. Remember that just because you read about some guy pushing 25psi on a M90 charged 3800 on a forum doesn't mean it is the proper way of doing things, or will yield the best power on that combo.

 

[jd4242]

They also have smaller displacement engines which means more boost can be ran at a given airflow and much more efficient intercooler systems to reduce IAT's too. As with anything, the harder you push it the closer you get to a point of diminishing returns. I think you will pass that point once you get around and go past 15 psi given your particular combo. Your ZZP AWIC system may reduce IAT's but at the end of the day it is not that thick and will heatsoak very quickly. Just keep in mind that you may make more power on less boost once you go that far off of the efficiency map.

There race engines are 4.1 i belive and i have the exact IC and setup they run on there stock motor up to 15psi,for there race motors they do make a thicker IC tho.again just dreaming,dont really think ill push this motor past 10psi and sure it will probably make the best power right around there from what your saying, one can only dream tho lol

 

[rocket 5979]

There race engines are 4.1 i belive and i have the exact IC and setup they run on there stock motor up to 15psi,for there race motors they do make a thicker IC tho.again just dreaming,dont really think ill push this motor past 10psi and sure it will probably make the best power right around there from what your saying, one can only dream tho lol

I am not trying to rain on your parade, and it is nice to have dreams as long as they aren't unrealistic. I see this happen all the time with the other Mustang guys who I am friends with. They see a few builds of a 4.6 2v V8 putting down 350+rwhp while n/a on some forum or magazine and now they think they can do it too since it has been done. What they fail to realize is what all went into the combo to make that goal achievable; which is something that is normally not fully disclosed.

 

[jd4242]

I am not trying to rain on your parade, and it is nice to have dreams as long as they aren't unrealistic. I see this happen all the time with the other Mustang guys who I am friends with. They see a few builds of a 4.6 2v V8 putting down 350+rwhp while n/a on some forum or magazine and now they think they can do it too since it has been done. What they fail to realize is what all went into the combo to make that goal achievable; which is something that is normally not fully disclosed.

STOP RAINING..IM GOING TO RUN 25PSI AND GOING TO MAKE 500HP lol yea i kno,im still just trying to make this dream come true i got going on now!!

 

[wood1]

Ha ha, nice. Whatever your motor puts out will far more than my old beast... best of luck bud.

Looking forward to seeing the dyno sheet.

 

[jd4242]

well some updates.got ride of that delta crap and put sealed rockers in and they are way more beefier and just look so much stronger.also put in some rocker spacers.cleaned the crap out of the motor,headers and accessories and repainted all of it.it was dark when i finished and it rained all day today so ill have to post a pic of it all cleaned up later.have to send a big thank you to don(dono) for supplying me with the rocker spacers plan on mounting my dash gauges and steering wheel gauge tomorrow and new fuse box;(
delta crap and these are new,low miles

old delta and new sealed power,much larger and oil holes are bigger too

old and new rockers with spacers(thanks again to don)

also finally got my tail pipes 2.5 to dual 3.5 slant cut

 

[Dono]

Very nice. Im impressed with the quality of the spacers.
I should think about picking up valve cover gaskets so I can do mine when I pull my upper plenum off for the SC install.

Your motor looks so pretty and clean!

And your welcome, I'm glad I could contribute something to your build.